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Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 MKV support?

Explorer ,
Aug 01, 2008 Aug 01, 2008

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Is there any way to get Adobe Premiere to support MKV files or it simply just doesn't support it?

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LEGEND ,
Dec 11, 2011 Dec 11, 2011

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No one's arguing the containers/codecs aren't useful, only that they aren't used by enough of PP's customers for Adobe to spend resources on adding them.

You have to remember, the three primary modes of delivery are disk, web and broadcast.  None of those modes make use of the MKV container.  Computer playback, which is where MKV and FLAC shine, is probably a reletively small segment of professional delivery.

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Participant ,
Dec 30, 2011 Dec 30, 2011

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Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Professional music editing software already supports FLAC, because the vendors in this business can't afford NOT to support the most clever, open sound format there is. They still try, of course, but once musicians has the option to use it, they wouldn't go back to using any of the industrial standards, unless they are forced to (that is if the state-of-the-art editing software doesn't support it for some reason).

WAVE has been outdated for the past 10 years. The fact that we still use it is just because of the fact that Microsoft, Adobe, Sony, Canon and Apple all keep insisting that we should use THEIR formats and not the better alternatives. If you can't compete with lossless and space efficient, you can always decide not to support it instead.

The most versatile web "toolbox" there is, Drupal, has a web player that supports streaming of MKV files. All the different codecs that goes in the MKV container are already supported if they are streaming friendly (like Matroska itself).

Because Drupal is an open standard, we will probably soon see support for the advanced Matroska features such as subtitles, indexing, multiple audio tracks and even menus... Even DRM if the commercial developers were interested in saving money by being less dependent on Flash. Apparently they aren't, or maybe they just aren't aware of the better alternatives?

The better formats aren't being used because Adobe don't want them to be used - not because their customers wouldn't use them, if they had the chance and knowledge to do it.

... The chicken refuses to lay a new egg so to speak!

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LEGEND ,
Dec 30, 2011 Dec 30, 2011

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The better formats aren't being used because Adobe don't want them to be used

Sorry but...past evidence simply doesn't support that notion.  I don't believe Adobe really cares much about which formats/codecs professionals are using.  As new formats/codecs get adopted by professionals, Adobe has been very good about adding support.

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New Here ,
Jan 03, 2012 Jan 03, 2012

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Please don't entangled in the format,each team must take into account the needs of the market, MKV relatively small minority. Format is a eternal topic. this time,every user can choose the other way to solve this problem, Use Video Converter, This is an emerging industry, If Adobe Premiere supported all formats, then many people will lose their jobs. I want to say "Thanks Adobe". There, i recommend a video converter,

link: http://www.aovsoft.com/products/video-converter/

Hope this software can help more friends

Your friend - Fishman

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Participant ,
Jan 07, 2012 Jan 07, 2012

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AOVsoft's converter has some nice features (cutting without converting is always nice, and cropping is still a missing feature in too many standard programs). But I'm quite happy with the free alternatives (Handbrake, SUPER, Freemake (just as fast as AOV), MakeMKV (lossless) and XMedia Recode). Notably Handbrake which lets you adjust even more than most of the paid/professional tools. It's just a little less user friendly.

Some people have actually been developing these tools and formats for free continuously over the years, and they're not just half-done solutions.

Matroska and FLAC are superiour, better featured, lossy/lossless solutions.

I take it that there isn't an urgent need for MKV support in the United States, because you don't have a broad public demand for subtitles and foreign (original) language support? But anyone working in a multilingual environment would benefit from this. So it's not really an obsession. I am merely stressing the fact that the industry is keeping a whole bunch of inferior, platform dependent (and therefore short lived) file formats alive. They're even still developing new, closed, proprietary formats for mobile devices). This short-term profit speculation is the main reason why there is a "format war" going on. A war that forces content providers to create identical video content in different file containers.

The industry have been trying to agree on a mutual standard (MXF) since 2005, but even after 7 years it is still not really supported by any standalone equipment. Meanwhile Matroska (created in 2002) has basically developed all the features that MXF has, and it is already widely supported by leading hardware and mobile equipment manufacturers such as Asus, Samsung, LG and Western Digital.

The "high end" hardware developers just decided that they won't support MKV. That is of course the main reason why "the market doesn't use it".

While there is an increasing demand for HD video content, the industry has decided only to provide lossy audio content. It is practically impossible to buy online digital audio content in a lossless sound format legally. That is of course another reason why sound connoisseurs are sharing their CD and DVD audio content as FLAC files. When the CD disappears they're stuck with lossy AAC, WMA and MP3 files!

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LEGEND ,
Jan 09, 2012 Jan 09, 2012

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I take it that there isn't an urgent need for MKV support in the United States, because you don't have a broad public demand for subtitles and foreign (original) language support?

No.  There isn't a need for Matroska because it's not a file format used for the major delivery mediums - disk, broadcast and web.

The industry have been trying t agree on a mutual standard (MXF) since 2005, but even after 7 years it is still not really supported by any standalone equipment.

Uh...not sure that's very accurate.  Many professional camera use the format.  And many TV stations use it for broadcast as well.

Matroska (created in 2002) has basically developed all the features that MXF has, and it is already widely supported by leading hardware and mobile equipment manufacturers such as Asus, Samsung, LG and Western Digital.

Yeah, for computer playback.  But that's just not anywhere near a significant enough percentage of professional delivery.  The big three are, as previously mentioned, disk (DVD, Blu-ray), broadcast, and web sites.

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Participant ,
Jan 10, 2012 Jan 10, 2012

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If we acknowledge that the market for systematic and widespread DVD and Blu-ray content is going to be practically non-existent within the next 2-4 years, this leaves us with streaming, broadcast and web sites. MKV is ideal for this purpose, because it already fully supports all the market-oriented requirements such as DRM, subtitling, indexing etc.

Computer playback only? I just gave you a list of some the hardware manufaturers that actually supports MKV playback on their standalone players and platforms. On top of that users are constantly trying to "jailbreak" other standalone players to support MKV playback for one very good reason: The users want it, but the manufacturers don't want them to use it! Sony's Playstation is a well known example.

The main difference from a market perspective between MXF and MKV is actually the lack of broad MXF software support. Only a small percentage of MXF files are are actually being used for video content. MXF is an acknowledged standard like BWF (sound) and AAF, but the format is practically unsupported by any free software product at the moment. Furthermore, it also still seems that there isn't a consistent, standardised support for generating MXF files with video, multiple audio, subtitles and indices... These features have already been supported by the MKV container for years.

I have no strict preference for MKV. I just wish there was a properly supported multimedia container, but the industry is constatnly fighting against it it seems. That is why MKV was invented by the user communities.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 10, 2012 Jan 10, 2012

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If we acknowledge that the market for systematic and widespread DVD and Blu-ray content is going to be practically non-existent within the next 2-4 years

Can't really acknowledge that, though.  The reports I'm reading all say that Blu-ray sales continue to grow.  Now if you want to say 20 to 40 years, maybe.

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Participant ,
Jan 11, 2012 Jan 11, 2012

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You can't be serious?!

Jim Simon wrote:

Can't really acknowledge that, though.  The reports I'm reading all say that Blu-ray sales continue to grow.  Now if you want to say 20 to 40 years, maybe.

... I wonder if it will actually be possible to buy a Blu-ray disc in 20 years? I can't imagine. There certainly won't be any standard media players around to play them on.

Blu-ray or other physical formats will become a collector's item just like vinyl records. And it will definetely not be the future delivery format for neither homemade nor industry manufactured media products. They are far too expensive to produce compared to the decreasing sales figures that everyone expects.

DVD sales have dropped dramatically, and Blu-ray sales are very far from making up for the drop in DVD sales even if BRD sales have increased during the past year. That is only what you would expect when the players and the discs have become more affordable.

But even if we don't consider illegal copies of films, both the DVD and the Blu-ray discs are expected to disappear as a mass consumer product within a foreseeable future. Not in 20 or 40 years but most likely within the next 5 years. I could provide you with at least 25 links to articles that address this issue and come up with some very good arguments for it.

At the end of the day the fixed, non-flexible, closed structure formats like DVD and Blu-ray are by no means suited for the era of mobile, handheld devices. They require mechanical (vulnerable) parts inside the products which just doesn't fit very well with the trend towards creating more power-efficient playback devices.

I mentioned cloud based software earlier in this long discussion. Even big fat Adobe will have to take the fact into account that they won't be able to sell individual software licenses to the same extent in the future for several reasons:

  1. Both private and public institutions are constantly looking for ways to save money (cheaper products that can deliver semi-good results will be considered)
  2. Cloud based software solutions will eventually become fully competetive with the Photoshop suite, because there's already plenty of single freeware products that can deliver similar quality in different areas of the production process. And for instance, Drupal-based solutions will actually enable all these different products to play together.

Back to the piracy issue...

If Matroska is the preferred format for storing HD movie content illegally it is still the preferred format for a very good reason: It's the optimal delivery format! Whether you've bought your films and music legally or illegally, you still want to be able to back them up in the most flexible, space-efficient, lossless storage format there is. It's just like when the music pirates paved the way for the once industrially banned MP3 format. But MP3 was the better format, because it actually supported the needs of the consumers better than any of the existing formats back then. Today, no one can imagine a hardware or a software product that will not read an MP3 file.

Professionals will just keep using whatever formats they're told to deliver, and that is primarily decided by what is offered by Adobe, Sony and Canon. These companies just have a long history of fighting against open standards, so I would expect them to be the last of the last to support open standards.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 11, 2012 Jan 11, 2012

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Many here feel that Sony rather shot itself in the foot, with its insistance on the total DRM in BD. I'd say that this forum was split about 60-40 for HD-DVD vs BD, but BD won. I am NOT a Sony fan, but they got to write the specs., so the rest is history.

BD sales are lagging, below expectations, and there are probably myriad reasons for that. We'll have to wait to see what 3D (think it's a fad, personally, but have been wrong before) does to, or for BD.

Now, various streaming media formats/schemes are gaining ground, but as Jim mentions, much of that is predicated on pirated files, that others can use, without paying. Not sure how that would factor into a corporations' decisons to support certain formats. Still, when one gets past the thieves and pirates, there might be uses for streaming schemes, that are viable.

Time will tell.

Hunt

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LEGEND ,
Jan 11, 2012 Jan 11, 2012

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... I wonder if it will actually be possible to buy a Blu-ray disc in 20 years?

You shouldn't really take that as a prediction.  I simply added zeros to show that the 2 to 4 year time frame hinted at for the death of physical media is impractically short.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 11, 2012 Jan 11, 2012

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It's the optimal delivery format!

For a computer, I won't argue.  But like I said, Premiere Pro professionals just aren't delivering computer files to paying clients en masse.  For the time being, the big three mediums are still disk, broadcast and web, none of which use the MKV container.

Professionals will just keep using whatever formats they're told to deliver, and that is primarily decided by what is offered by Adobe, Sony and Canon.

Actually, it's almost always decided by the client.  And right now, they just aren't asking for MKV files, which is why so few Premiere Pro users are asking Adobe for MKV support.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 12, 2012 Jan 12, 2012

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it's almost always decided by the client.  And right now, they just aren't asking for MKV files...

Until retirement, that was certainly my case. Going back to an earlier MKV thread, I had to search* for MKV, to find out what was being discussed. In my career, I had zero requests for that format - mostly disc, then broadcast, and finally Web/mobile devices delivery. However, I must add that my client list was not THAT broad, so is but a quick "snapshot" of client requests. There were a very few other requests, such as WMV's for PowerPoint, etc., just no MKV's. With that said, I can recall no other "regulars" here, who are mostly pro, or semi-pro, who requested instructions on MKV's, so that might mean that none of them had ever fielded requests. Considering your (Jim's) broad client-base, I would have assumed that you might have been a likely one, to field such a request, but apparently no.

Just some random observations over the years.

Hunt

* In that initial search, to educate myself, the vast majority of hits were for torrent material, though that is not an indictment of the format - just one common use.

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Participant ,
Jan 12, 2012 Jan 12, 2012

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Hmmm...

I would have assumed that you might have been a likely one, to field such a request, but apparently no.

I have actually sent two official requests for MKV support during the last 12 months (following your links to the official Adobe PP request form).

I have also sent a request for MKV and WebM support in the Flash Player.

If these requests haven't been recorded anywhere, then I can understand why Adobe say they never get any requests for Matroska container support... I wonder which requests are actually recorded and which that aren't? There have been several other Matroska advocates in here, and I would be very surprised if none of them had sent a request as well. But of course we can't rule out that they simply (and probably correctly) assumed that sending a request would be useless.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 12, 2012 Jan 12, 2012

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Sorry, but that was meant for Jim, due to his broader client base, than mine. He handles a much wider range of client, than I ever did, and would have assumed (obviously incorrectly), that of many here, he'd have had such requests.

While I do not work for Adobe, I do know that Feature Requests, like Bug Reports are read, and then prioritized.

While support for MKV has pretty much become moot for me, I would urge all users, who find a need for it, to file the Feature Requests. There IS power in numbers.

Sorry for the confusion,

Hunt

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LEGEND ,
Jan 12, 2012 Jan 12, 2012

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I have actually sent two official requests for MKV support

Now you just need to add a few zeros to that number from other people...

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LEGEND ,
Jan 10, 2012 Jan 10, 2012

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I just gave you a list of some the hardware manufaturers that actually supports MKV playback on their standalone players and platforms.

Yes, as a "computer file", not from a DVD or Blu-ray disk.  As things stand right now, professional delivery to consumers just isn't in the form of computer files.  It's on disk, or on a web site, or it's broadcast.

If and when Best Buy starts selling movies on thumb drives, you might have a case.  But until then...

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LEGEND ,
Jan 10, 2012 Jan 10, 2012

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the format is practically unsupported by any free software product at the moment.

Irrelevant.  Professionals who use the MXF format generally acknowledge that the tools required for the job will cost money.  And those professional tools do often support the MXF format.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 10, 2012 Jan 10, 2012

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You guys are all making the case from the viewpoint of a teenager ripping movies to share with his friends so they don't have to buy their own copy.  Because as things stand right now, that is the majority use of the MKV container.  I've not heard one cogent argument from a paid professional who needs to deliver a professional product to a paying client in MKV format.

And even if someone reading can come up with such a scenario, know that it'll probably take thousands of such requests for Adobe to move on the issue.  And as has already been stated by Adobe personnel, they just aren't getting those requests.

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New Here ,
Feb 09, 2012 Feb 09, 2012

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*Blows dust away*

Wow, look at this thread.  The answer to the original question is in there somewhere, underneath all that text.

Anyway, here's my two cents and a summary, from attempting to work with MKV files myself in Premiere Pro CS5.5:

  • MKVs are incompatible.  You can't fool Premiere by changing the extension.  Big surprise.
  • Also not surprisingly, the streams contained in the MKV (e.g. H.264 video + 5.1 AC3 audio) are compatible.
  • Demux the MKV to separate streams (files of extension .264 and .ac3 successfully import) or remux to another container format (e.g. M2TS files work).
  • Use tsMuxeR and MKVToolnix to losslessly convert to/from MKVs:  http://www.videohelp.com/tools/tsMuxeR; http://www.videohelp.com/tools/mkvtoolnix
  • If you're willing to spend $70, try the Moyea Import Plugin.  Says it's compatible with Premiere Pro CS4 and under, or Premiere Elements 8.0 and under.

IMHO, I like MKVs.  Because they support video, audio and subtitle streams of all kinds -- moreso than other containers like AVI or MP4 -- they're useful.  Incidentally, given an MKV file and an M2TS file of identical streams, the MKV file is smaller.

There is also something to be said about Matroska's relation to WebM, which according to the latter Adobe supports.  Depending on WebM's future success, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't already a large number of requests for compatibility with its accompanying formats (e.g. Vorbis and Matroska) -- claims of the opposite in this thread notwithstanding.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 10, 2012 Feb 10, 2012

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claims of the opposite in this thread notwithstanding.

It's more than just a claim.  It's a statement from an Adobe employee who has access to the feature requests.  There just aren't a lot of them for MKV support.

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Participant ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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Thanks for your comment, PHR.

PHR16384 wrote:

There is also something to be said about Matroska's relation to WebM, which according to the latter Adobe supports.  Depending on WebM's future success, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't already a large number of requests for compatibility with its accompanying formats (e.g. Vorbis and Matroska) -- claims of the opposite in this thread notwithstanding.

This is Adobe's official response to the WebM discussion:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAwODA

After Adobe was questioned about the WebM support, the response was:

"Yes, on the priority list it's not very high because we don't have a lot of customers or real customers who want to do production with WebM. The problem on the production side is that encoding WebM is simply too slow, it's not real time. And it's not JDI too (just do it). Yes, it's a lot of work for us."

In other words: Adobe's real customers doesn't care about the format - according to Adobe.

However, anyone who has been following the discussion about the lack of a global video standard for all internet browsers for the last 2 years would say that Adobe is talking around the issue here. The question was NOT about Premiere Pro support - it is about Flash Player support, which has nothing to do with production or encoding.

In this case it is merely about being able to playback the format in the hegemonic Flash Player, which is indeeed a very simple thing to do given the fact that the format plays natively in Firefox, Opera and Chrome (but NOT in Safari, IE and Flash!).

WebM does not playback slower than the Flash video containers. And unlike 'big Matroska', WebM is very simple to decode.

But for obvious reasons, Adobe has no interest whatsoever in supporting a format that would make their own containers (SWF, FLV and F4V) redundant for standard web video. And it's not just in Adobe's own interest either: If the hegemonic Flash Player opens the 'flood gates' for open standards, a profitable market for the MPEG-LA shareholders will disappear. If this wasn't true, then Google would never have paid such a gigantic sum for the VP8 codec back in 2010.

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New Here ,
May 14, 2012 May 14, 2012

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@Eurositi: That is because the real movie editing industry customers simply doesn't use Premiere. Pro or Elements.

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LEGEND ,
May 14, 2012 May 14, 2012

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real movie editing industry customers simply doesn't use Premiere Pro

That's probably true (for now).  But cinema editors probably make up a pretty small percentage of professional editors, which includes all people getting paid to edit media to a professional standard of quality.

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New Here ,
May 14, 2012 May 14, 2012

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I specifically reply to this thread because of some clown that called themself a pro and tell other people to get consumer. If you are a real pro, not a pro wannabe, you won't use Premiere. It just doesn't worth anything in my world. You are only a clown claiming and pretending to be a pro so that you can justify bashing other people asking for mkv importer.

I ALWAYS use MKV. Nothing can contain uncompressed format along with raw subtitles and multiple audio streams ready for production other than matroska. Let's say, 1x main video, 1x side video, 1x 8 channel wav english, 1x 8 channel wav french, 1x 2 channel wav english commentary, with 4 raw unrendered text subtitles. Oh, and I can even put language label on them. I always bundle some video, audios, and subtitle to be transported. MKV is THE best container for this.

I am not a video editor, but I am working in movie industry. And if you can say we are not camera professionals, I don't know who is. In this field, we are working with thousands of stills. High resolution effects, 3D renders, and whatnot. And no.. we don't use Premiere. Premiere can't even handle 960 frames per second 4K camera properly that we are using. Not to mention 3D field editing. We use the other software starting with F and V for this purpose. And don't you dare to tell me to ditch $10K camera for your cheap skate $1K-ish camera. It's just doesn't compare. Unless you can suggest a $1K camera that can shoot 960 frames per second for slow-mo pictures. LOL.

MKV is useful to transport files or to send to our managers if they want to see a footage in a hurry as MKV can pack uncompressed movie with uncompressed audio. We also store some movies in MKV just for convenience sake. It's not easy to copy 6 files into 1 media then sync them all over again on destination. MKV could do the trick. We can continue to manipulate the video without quality loss. And with F and V, I only need to demux them into raw individual files. With Premiere Pro 5, you have to remux again into container that Premiere Pro can understand. Be it ts, mp4, or avi.

We do use Premiere for creation some end user footages. For example as CD burner. Oh yeah, it's convenient enough. But not as professional editor.

So don't claim yourself as pro until you taste my world. A world where your Premiere Pro that you claim so much as pro software has no place in it.

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