ColdFusion

is myspace goin back to .NET?

it was built and sold in PHP, FOX then converted it to ASP,
and the site REALLY seemed to chug at that point, daily crashes,
I came face to face with the blue dragon 3 times a day lol,
and now they seem to have a full CF front end, (as far as I can tell)
and their integrating RIA technology as well, (thanks to the ease of CF? :-p)

I've grown up using nothing but Adobe design/video products,
and when I got into web dev, and adobe bought macromedia,
I thought thank gawd, now I have design tools as well as dev tools,
that are all coming from one maker, and the work flow will be seamless.
and it has been so far ;-)

This is extremely well put - problem is, there should be way more people
rushing to declare this! Fact is, there just aren't than many people
positioned to do so. Fringe cases and exceptions don't really do much to
instill confidence when they odds are so overwhelmingly against cf making a
comeback. Thats my opoinion anyway.


"jasals" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f3p8cr$m82$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> WHy do peopel even bother to reply to these naysayers?
>
> CF is alive, its being upgraded, and used all over the place. The more I
> work
> in this field the more I see developers respond to fads and new releases.
>
> CF is a great tool, and has its place, as does PHP and .NET
>
> What is the point of saying CF is dying?
>
> As for posts on this forum. Did you ever think that maybe a lot of people
> are
> searching the gigantic amounts of posts already here? I used to post more
> often, not I post less. Most of my answers are now coming from the Adobe
> LiveDocs page and via Google searches if not here. If anything fewer posts
> here
> might be indicative of a better system... fewer problems and questions,
> and a
> vast amount of documentation.
>
> Give it a rest. there is no point to this argument. It shows up in these
> forums every once in a whiel and serves no purpose. These forums are here
> for
> CF users to help one another, not bash one technology or another... get
> back to
> work.
>

Ken, I think he made his point well enough. You asked, he answered. If you
can't see value in using the techniques suggested then ask around for
others. You got plenty of suggestions here, more than helpful.

"Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
news:f3mbi5$26c$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> No that really doesn't help.
>
> If you can't back up what you say about ColdFusion dying with some hard
> facts, then you should probably stop trolling the forum.
>
> --
> Ken Ford
> Adobe Community Expert
> Fordwebs, LLC
> http://www.fordwebs.com
>
>
> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f3llc8$5hh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> re: Can you show me some statistics
>>
>> As I said, you can do this for yourself using a variety of techniques.
>> You're not going to get exact statistics for this stuff. Remember what I
>> said - guide only!
>>
>> For example, if you hear that training courses are being closed down (eg:
>> my state no longer offers the cf courses due to lack of demand) . Then,
>> you get an email from a big publisher telling you they are no longer
>> publishing their coldfusion book due to lack of demand. It would be fair
>> to reason that a platform may be losing favor, even dying out. But you
>> need to dig deeper in the knowledge that there are no hard stats and that
>> these things, in isolation, can't be depended on to "prove" anything. So
>> you look at TIOBE and see terrible "stats", and you spot that the forums
>> receive very few new posts each day (has to be relative to most "other"
>> communities). Then you factor in that they still haven't produced an IDE
>> (in fact the new "preferred" IDE is actually a step backwards from the
>> old one and is actually a designers tool)
>>
>> After all this and much much more, you realise that many sites are moving
>> away from cf (even the big ones like myspace are migrating to .Net via
>> BD) to the "newer" platforms, there are minimal cf jobs where they were
>> once abundant, and the company who produce the tool has changed yet again
>> (creating a new wave of uncertaintly for another lengthy period of time).
>> So you start to wonder how the market is going and look around for pre
>> written apps and the like, again, you realise its slim pickings.
>>
>> Look, at some point you either say "co-incidence" or "meaningless" or you
>> just accept that the technology is not very popular anymore and may well
>> be in danger of dying out. Certainly, after doing the "research", most
>> IS/IT manager wouldn't touch coldfusion. Which reminds me of another
>> indicator I think is useful, the fact that it's never "Shall we use php,
>> dot net of coldfusion?". It's the experience of many people that CF just
>> isn't discussed or raised as an option - even Ben Forta acknoledges this
>> (and did write something about how cf developers could address it with
>> their managers)
>>
>> But seriously, if you are looking for stats, I don't think you will find
>> them. In fact I suspect that if you do, they will be isolated (TIOBE for
>> example) to one aspect and give you a only a snapshot of the whole
>> story - best to be thorough and do the leg work!!
>>
>> You coud get stats for downloads or sales if Adobe released them, but
>> these would be disheartneing. Even without doing the legwork you'd likley
>> alredy know they wouldn't be very helpful w/r to making a good case
>> relative to "others".
>>
>> Hope that helps Ken!! Thst pretty much the advice we got froma few other
>> companies and is exactly the way we did it ourselves.
>>
>> At the end of the day - it really only matters what conclusions you draw.
>> There could be only 2 cf installs left on the whole web, but if it works
>> for you, who cares about what others think!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
>> news:f3li2q$22j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>> Can you show me some statistics, other than a site that uses search
>>> engine hits on the programming language, that supports your claims?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ken Ford
>>> Adobe Community Expert
>>> Fordwebs, LLC
>>> http://www.fordwebs.com
>>>
>>>
>>> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:f3lfdl$sj4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>> re: And you are basing popularity on this?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> This website is used by a lot of coders to determine trends in the
>>>> industry. It's to be used as a guide only - its impossible to get exact
>>>> figures. Personally, I use it in combination with things such as
>>>> community activity/size, industry around a language/product (eg; third
>>>> party products) and various other things (number of books, book sales,
>>>> eZines, developer sites, etc).
>>>>
>>>> In the case of coldfusion, all combinations are pretty much in line.
>>>> Otherwise, it would be unfair to pick on just one method and jump to
>>>> conclusions. Its farily safe to say it is not a very popular
>>>> programming platform and is in fact very tiny compared to most other
>>>> players. One could conclude it is dying out - in fact many do conclude
>>>> this (rightly or wrongly).
>>>>
>>>> I have seen TIOBE not reflect other methods / results however, so
>>>> again, its a guide only. You have to double check it with alternate
>>>> resources.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:f3lc9h$p5o$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>>> What is that website?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> And you are basing popularity on this?
>>>>>
>>>>> The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search
>>>>> engines. The search query that is used is +"<language> programming"
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ken Ford
>>>>> Adobe Community Expert
>>>>> Fordwebs, LLC
>>>>> http://www.fordwebs.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:f3l998$ltm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>>>> FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and
>>>>>> Prolog. Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently rated as
>>>>>> 0.2% on the following website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>>>>> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld
>>>>>>> has seen fit
>>>>>>> to post the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
>>>>>>> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
>>>>>>> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their
>>>>>>> forums.
>>>>>>> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just
>>>>>>> keep on
>>>>>>> programming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>

Thank you, Jonathan! I swear, I was getting ready to make a similar post about replying to these sort of posts.

I'm not trying to piggyback on Jonathan's post. I just want to echo his sentiment in that I think it's important to "ignore" the naysayers (to some degree, that is) on our forum. Nothing we write will sway them and I don't think anything they write here affects our group of developers.

As a result, let's not give them any credibility by bothering with their uninformed and insignificant posts. Now, since CF is so dead, you'll all have to excuse me. I need to go deposit a few checks I got for my last CF projects...and send out a couple of invoices for other CF projects I wrapped up last month. I'll close with, If this language is so dead, I don't think I can handle the workload if it were alive!

WHy do peopel even bother to reply to these naysayers?

CF is alive, its being upgraded, and used all over the place. The more I work in this field the more I see developers respond to fads and new releases.

CF is a great tool, and has its place, as does PHP and .NET

What is the point of saying CF is dying?

As for posts on this forum. Did you ever think that maybe a lot of people are searching the gigantic amounts of posts already here? I used to post more often, not I post less. Most of my answers are now coming from the Adobe LiveDocs page and via Google searches if not here. If anything fewer posts here might be indicative of a better system... fewer problems and questions, and a vast amount of documentation.

Give it a rest. there is no point to this argument. It shows up in these forums every once in a whiel and serves no purpose. These forums are here for CF users to help one another, not bash one technology or another... get back to work.

rE: I suppose the real question is "is coldfusion profitable?".

Bingo! And thats what really annoys me - I love cf and enjoy using it. But
there's no options for me to do so profitably. And the downward spiral
(rather, the continuing negative perceptions) of cf isn't making many people
keen to give it go.

>>Even if
> it isn't your most profitable product, how hard is it to write wrappers
for
> Java's built in capabilities?

And thats pretty much why Adobe/MM could afford to retain a couple of
"engineers" and release new versions. Minimal effort leads to a profit
margin that makes it viable still. Actually, they could even run coldfusion
at a loss and plug it as a value add that drives sales of other products.
Thats bad news I reckon, s it reduces teh chance ofthem open sourcing
coldfusion. Adobe/MM will try and squeeze as much money from it in the short
term even it kills the products adoption in the long term. In fact, I reckon
its actually too late for even open source approach to get much attention
from teh developer community. This should have happened pre dot net, RoR.
The window shut round about then!

>>but I suspect
> most Adobe share holders are pleased with CF's market performance

I supsect they are not. At least not to the point where they will actually
spend the money to really marekt it. I think it's only working because they
are closely monitoring money spent versus money generated. In other words,
marketing it in the way that others are marketed would probably kill that
profit margin. Its a very fine line - this is kind of what I meant when I
mentioned "life support". Do you rmember in the MM days, MM actually pushed
Php more than did CF!! It always annoyed me how in "related products" for
Dreamweaver, coldfusion was nowhere to be seen. And nearly all code samples
adn articles were in php. They even stopped putting those coldfusion ads in
the PC magazines. And they never once even tried to developer a programming
IDE for coldfusion.

I know of a number of developers that felt very insulted that DW was
suddenly promoted as the preferred IDE for CF - a major step back from
HomeSite (and that too was far from perfect, but good in its day). It's like
they wanted to ditch legions of "serious" coders and attract designers and
newbs - exactly the peope who generally can get by with copy and paste PHP.
Whereas the folk they alienated where the ones that may have sprung for it.
What a wasted oppurtunity!! MM did more to harm CF adoption than promote it.
Will Adobe do any better? I doubt it, the math is probably the same for them
as it was for MM.



"Cole" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f3o74a$coo$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I suppose the real question is "is coldfusion profitable?". Software
> development is a business, Macromedia and now Adobe have continued to
> develop
> the CF product. If the math adds up, why kill a profitable product? Even
> if
> it isn't your most profitable product, how hard is it to write wrappers
> for
> Java's built in capabilities? Look at it from that stand point and it is
> hard
> to say that it is a dying technology. As long as the loyal consumer base
> continue to use the product it will remain relevant. You can crap on
> coldfusion and say other languages are better, maybe your right, but I
> suspect
> most Adobe share holders are pleased with CF's market performance when you
> break it down to dollars and cents. Is coldfusion profitable enough to
> keep?
> Adobe seems to think so and I doubt they will dump CF because the majority
> of
> blogger think PHP is better.
>
>
>

I suppose the real question is "is coldfusion profitable?". Software development is a business, Macromedia and now Adobe have continued to develop the CF product. If the math adds up, why kill a profitable product? Even if it isn't your most profitable product, how hard is it to write wrappers for Java's built in capabilities? Look at it from that stand point and it is hard to say that it is a dying technology. As long as the loyal consumer base continue to use the product it will remain relevant. You can crap on coldfusion and say other languages are better, maybe your right, but I suspect most Adobe share holders are pleased with CF's market performance when you break it down to dollars and cents. Is coldfusion profitable enough to keep? Adobe seems to think so and I doubt they will dump CF because the majority of blogger think PHP is better.

re: I wouldn't give this article much credibility. She also states that C
is a dead technology.

Yes, this does seem a little odd. Java, for example, uses C for all it's IO
functionlit. Most OS's are written in C too. Embedded systems also;

I think you have to read articles like this, and all claims of CF being a
dead technology, in the right context. For example, I think windows 3.1 is
dead - but I know for a fact that my aunty still uses it! Nonetheless, I
still accpet that is is for all intent and purposes dead as a doornail. The
thing with C is that it was once THE language and used by nearly all. These
days programmers can go their whole careers and not touch C. In fact, it
will never ever be a required skill in any job they do. In most cases, C has
been replaced. (And will continue to be so as small devices gets more
memory)

It's a similar thing with Coldfusion. It was once THE web dev platform of
choice, but now it's rarely heard of. Its true there are hot spots in
certain places and it does have a small but loyal following. But far too
many things have conspired to bring it to teh point of ending up on lists an
darticles such as the computerworld article. To me, it was when
Sitepoint.com, the single biggest web dev resource on the web, declared cf
as stagnant and "not very popular". (Actually, for me, I knew the end was
neigh when O'Reilly withdrew its popular coldfusion title stating lack of
demand)

So, really, its hard to say CF is dead and actually prove it - there's no
real way to say when a death certificate should be issued toa technology and
how one is supposed to go about testing for a pulse. I'd say CF is on life
support at the moemnt, but is currently being treated with a dose of Scorpio
3 times a day. I doubt this will do anything more than make it a little more
comfortable on its death bed - but who knows.



"Cole" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f3o00f$581$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I wouldn't give this article much credibility. She also states that C is a
> dead technology. It is very hard for me to take her opinion seriously,
> especially considering that the framework for interpretive languages like
> Java
> and .NET are all written in C. Hasn't she heard? CF8 is comming soon!
>

I wouldn't give this article much credibility. She also states that C is a dead technology. It is very hard for me to take her opinion seriously, especially considering that the framework for interpretive languages like Java and .NET are all written in C. Hasn't she heard? CF8 is comming soon!

No that really doesn't help.

If you can't back up what you say about ColdFusion dying with some hard facts, then you should probably stop trolling the forum.

--
Ken Ford
Adobe Community Expert
Fordwebs, LLC
http://www.fordwebs.com


"Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f3llc8$5hh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi Ken,
>
> re: Can you show me some statistics
>
> As I said, you can do this for yourself using a variety of techniques.
> You're not going to get exact statistics for this stuff. Remember what I
> said - guide only!
>
> For example, if you hear that training courses are being closed down (eg: my
> state no longer offers the cf courses due to lack of demand) . Then, you get
> an email from a big publisher telling you they are no longer publishing
> their coldfusion book due to lack of demand. It would be fair to reason that
> a platform may be losing favor, even dying out. But you need to dig deeper
> in the knowledge that there are no hard stats and that these things, in
> isolation, can't be depended on to "prove" anything. So you look at TIOBE
> and see terrible "stats", and you spot that the forums receive very few new
> posts each day (has to be relative to most "other" communities). Then you
> factor in that they still haven't produced an IDE (in fact the new
> "preferred" IDE is actually a step backwards from the old one and is
> actually a designers tool)
>
> After all this and much much more, you realise that many sites are moving
> away from cf (even the big ones like myspace are migrating to .Net via BD)
> to the "newer" platforms, there are minimal cf jobs where they were once
> abundant, and the company who produce the tool has changed yet again
> (creating a new wave of uncertaintly for another lengthy period of time). So
> you start to wonder how the market is going and look around for pre written
> apps and the like, again, you realise its slim pickings.
>
> Look, at some point you either say "co-incidence" or "meaningless" or you
> just accept that the technology is not very popular anymore and may well be
> in danger of dying out. Certainly, after doing the "research", most IS/IT
> manager wouldn't touch coldfusion. Which reminds me of another indicator I
> think is useful, the fact that it's never "Shall we use php, dot net of
> coldfusion?". It's the experience of many people that CF just isn't
> discussed or raised as an option - even Ben Forta acknoledges this (and did
> write something about how cf developers could address it with their
> managers)
>
> But seriously, if you are looking for stats, I don't think you will find
> them. In fact I suspect that if you do, they will be isolated (TIOBE for
> example) to one aspect and give you a only a snapshot of the whole story -
> best to be thorough and do the leg work!!
>
> You coud get stats for downloads or sales if Adobe released them, but these
> would be disheartneing. Even without doing the legwork you'd likley alredy
> know they wouldn't be very helpful w/r to making a good case relative to
> "others".
>
> Hope that helps Ken!! Thst pretty much the advice we got froma few other
> companies and is exactly the way we did it ourselves.
>
> At the end of the day - it really only matters what conclusions you draw.
> There could be only 2 cf installs left on the whole web, but if it works for
> you, who cares about what others think!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
> news:f3li2q$22j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> Can you show me some statistics, other than a site that uses search engine
>> hits on the programming language, that supports your claims?
>>
>> --
>> Ken Ford
>> Adobe Community Expert
>> Fordwebs, LLC
>> http://www.fordwebs.com
>>
>>
>> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:f3lfdl$sj4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>> re: And you are basing popularity on this?
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> This website is used by a lot of coders to determine trends in the
>>> industry. It's to be used as a guide only - its impossible to get exact
>>> figures. Personally, I use it in combination with things such as
>>> community activity/size, industry around a language/product (eg; third
>>> party products) and various other things (number of books, book sales,
>>> eZines, developer sites, etc).
>>>
>>> In the case of coldfusion, all combinations are pretty much in line.
>>> Otherwise, it would be unfair to pick on just one method and jump to
>>> conclusions. Its farily safe to say it is not a very popular programming
>>> platform and is in fact very tiny compared to most other players. One
>>> could conclude it is dying out - in fact many do conclude this (rightly
>>> or wrongly).
>>>
>>> I have seen TIOBE not reflect other methods / results however, so again,
>>> its a guide only. You have to double check it with alternate resources.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
>>> news:f3lc9h$p5o$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>> What is that website?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/
>>>>
>>>> And you are basing popularity on this?
>>>>
>>>> The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search
>>>> engines. The search query that is used is +"<language> programming"
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ken Ford
>>>> Adobe Community Expert
>>>> Fordwebs, LLC
>>>> http://www.fordwebs.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:f3l998$ltm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>>> FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and
>>>>> Prolog. Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently rated as 0.2%
>>>>> on the following website:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>>>> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has
>>>>>> seen fit
>>>>>> to post the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
>>>>>> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
>>>>>> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their
>>>>>> forums.
>>>>>> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just
>>>>>> keep on
>>>>>> programming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>