ColdFusion

Hi Ken,

re: Can you show me some statistics

As I said, you can do this for yourself using a variety of techniques.
You're not going to get exact statistics for this stuff. Remember what I
said - guide only!

For example, if you hear that training courses are being closed down (eg: my
state no longer offers the cf courses due to lack of demand) . Then, you get
an email from a big publisher telling you they are no longer publishing
their coldfusion book due to lack of demand. It would be fair to reason that
a platform may be losing favor, even dying out. But you need to dig deeper
in the knowledge that there are no hard stats and that these things, in
isolation, can't be depended on to "prove" anything. So you look at TIOBE
and see terrible "stats", and you spot that the forums receive very few new
posts each day (has to be relative to most "other" communities). Then you
factor in that they still haven't produced an IDE (in fact the new
"preferred" IDE is actually a step backwards from the old one and is
actually a designers tool)

After all this and much much more, you realise that many sites are moving
away from cf (even the big ones like myspace are migrating to .Net via BD)
to the "newer" platforms, there are minimal cf jobs where they were once
abundant, and the company who produce the tool has changed yet again
(creating a new wave of uncertaintly for another lengthy period of time). So
you start to wonder how the market is going and look around for pre written
apps and the like, again, you realise its slim pickings.

Look, at some point you either say "co-incidence" or "meaningless" or you
just accept that the technology is not very popular anymore and may well be
in danger of dying out. Certainly, after doing the "research", most IS/IT
manager wouldn't touch coldfusion. Which reminds me of another indicator I
think is useful, the fact that it's never "Shall we use php, dot net of
coldfusion?". It's the experience of many people that CF just isn't
discussed or raised as an option - even Ben Forta acknoledges this (and did
write something about how cf developers could address it with their
managers)

But seriously, if you are looking for stats, I don't think you will find
them. In fact I suspect that if you do, they will be isolated (TIOBE for
example) to one aspect and give you a only a snapshot of the whole story -
best to be thorough and do the leg work!!

You coud get stats for downloads or sales if Adobe released them, but these
would be disheartneing. Even without doing the legwork you'd likley alredy
know they wouldn't be very helpful w/r to making a good case relative to
"others".

Hope that helps Ken!! Thst pretty much the advice we got froma few other
companies and is exactly the way we did it ourselves.

At the end of the day - it really only matters what conclusions you draw.
There could be only 2 cf installs left on the whole web, but if it works for
you, who cares about what others think!
















"Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
news:f3li2q$22j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Can you show me some statistics, other than a site that uses search engine
> hits on the programming language, that supports your claims?
>
> --
> Ken Ford
> Adobe Community Expert
> Fordwebs, LLC
> http://www.fordwebs.com
>
>
> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f3lfdl$sj4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> re: And you are basing popularity on this?
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> This website is used by a lot of coders to determine trends in the
>> industry. It's to be used as a guide only - its impossible to get exact
>> figures. Personally, I use it in combination with things such as
>> community activity/size, industry around a language/product (eg; third
>> party products) and various other things (number of books, book sales,
>> eZines, developer sites, etc).
>>
>> In the case of coldfusion, all combinations are pretty much in line.
>> Otherwise, it would be unfair to pick on just one method and jump to
>> conclusions. Its farily safe to say it is not a very popular programming
>> platform and is in fact very tiny compared to most other players. One
>> could conclude it is dying out - in fact many do conclude this (rightly
>> or wrongly).
>>
>> I have seen TIOBE not reflect other methods / results however, so again,
>> its a guide only. You have to double check it with alternate resources.
>>
>>
>> "Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
>> news:f3lc9h$p5o$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>> What is that website?
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/
>>>
>>> And you are basing popularity on this?
>>>
>>> The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search
>>> engines. The search query that is used is +"<language> programming"
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ken Ford
>>> Adobe Community Expert
>>> Fordwebs, LLC
>>> http://www.fordwebs.com
>>>
>>>
>>> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:f3l998$ltm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>> FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and
>>>> Prolog. Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently rated as 0.2%
>>>> on the following website:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>>> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has
>>>>> seen fit
>>>>> to post the following:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
>>>>> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
>>>>> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their
>>>>> forums.
>>>>> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just
>>>>> keep on
>>>>> programming.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Can you show me some statistics, other than a site that uses search engine hits on the programming language, that supports your
claims?

--
Ken Ford
Adobe Community Expert
Fordwebs, LLC
http://www.fordwebs.com


"Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f3lfdl$sj4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> re: And you are basing popularity on this?
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> This website is used by a lot of coders to determine trends in the industry. It's to be used as a guide only - its impossible to
> get exact figures. Personally, I use it in combination with things such as community activity/size, industry around a
> language/product (eg; third party products) and various other things (number of books, book sales, eZines, developer sites, etc).
>
> In the case of coldfusion, all combinations are pretty much in line. Otherwise, it would be unfair to pick on just one method and
> jump to conclusions. Its farily safe to say it is not a very popular programming platform and is in fact very tiny compared to
> most other players. One could conclude it is dying out - in fact many do conclude this (rightly or wrongly).
>
> I have seen TIOBE not reflect other methods / results however, so again, its a guide only. You have to double check it with
> alternate resources.
>
>
> "Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message news:f3lc9h$p5o$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> What is that website?
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/
>>
>> And you are basing popularity on this?
>>
>> The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is +"<language>
>> programming"
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index
>>
>> --
>> Ken Ford
>> Adobe Community Expert
>> Fordwebs, LLC
>> http://www.fordwebs.com
>>
>>
>> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f3l998$ltm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>> FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and Prolog. Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently
>>> rated as 0.2% on the following website:
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>>> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has seen fit
>>>> to post the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
>>>> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
>>>> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their forums.
>>>> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just keep on
>>>> programming.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

re: And you are basing popularity on this?

Hi Ken,

This website is used by a lot of coders to determine trends in the industry.
It's to be used as a guide only - its impossible to get exact figures.
Personally, I use it in combination with things such as community
activity/size, industry around a language/product (eg; third party products)
and various other things (number of books, book sales, eZines, developer
sites, etc).

In the case of coldfusion, all combinations are pretty much in line.
Otherwise, it would be unfair to pick on just one method and jump to
conclusions. Its farily safe to say it is not a very popular programming
platform and is in fact very tiny compared to most other players. One could
conclude it is dying out - in fact many do conclude this (rightly or
wrongly).

I have seen TIOBE not reflect other methods / results however, so again, its
a guide only. You have to double check it with alternate resources.


"Ken Ford - *ACE*" <newsgroups@fordwebs.com> wrote in message
news:f3lc9h$p5o$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> What is that website?
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/
>
> And you are basing popularity on this?
>
> The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search
> engines. The search query that is used is +"<language> programming"
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index
>
> --
> Ken Ford
> Adobe Community Expert
> Fordwebs, LLC
> http://www.fordwebs.com
>
>
> "Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f3l998$ltm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and Prolog.
>> Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently rated as 0.2% on the
>> following website:
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
>> news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has
>>> seen fit
>>> to post the following:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
>>> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>>>
>>>
>>> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
>>> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their
>>> forums.
>>> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just keep
>>> on
>>> programming.
>>>
>>
>>
>

What is that website?

http://www.tiobe.com/

And you are basing popularity on this?

The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is +"<language>
programming"

http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index

--
Ken Ford
Adobe Community Expert
Fordwebs, LLC
http://www.fordwebs.com


"Campag" <campag@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f3l998$ltm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and Prolog. Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently rated
> as 0.2% on the following website:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm
>
>
>
>
> "tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has seen fit
>> to post the following:
>>
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
>> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>>
>>
>> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
>> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their forums.
>> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just keep on
>> programming.
>>
>
>

FYI: CF is even less popular than languages like Matlab, Bash and Prolog.
Even Pascal is used more than CF! CF is currently rated as 0.2% on the
following website:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm




"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has
> seen fit
> to post the following:
>
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>
>
> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their
> forums.
> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just keep on
> programming.
>

The following was the only valid comment to be made in rebuttal to the
article:

"Dying' technologies don't release major new versions every 1.5 years"

And I agree with this - both MM and Adobe have made some efforts to revive
CF. And to some degree its working. Without their efforts cf would be dead,
not "dying". The thing with CF is that all you need to do is add wrappers
around existing java functionlity (simplifying here) and you can claim "new
features" when all you are doing is exposing exsiting features in the
underlying technology. So cf will always be able to be improved as long as
Java improves.

The other difference between CF and those other technologies on the list
(eg; Cobol) is that CF is "dying" becuaseof it's placement in a market in
which better is available for no cost. Its far too competetive for CF to do
well in a market like this. Never mind php and dot net, ruby on rails
instanly obsoleted CF for many developers. An dteh cf killers just keep
getting bigger and stronger!


re: > When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just
keep on
> programming.

Do you know how corny that sounds? The activity of a community IS a great
indicator of how popular that product is. I suppose it wasa goo dthing that
O'Reilly killed off their once popular coldfusion book? Talk about telling
yourself what you need to hear.


"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f3kgej$m8h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has
> seen fit
> to post the following:
>
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI
> d=9021399&pageNumber=1
>
>
> As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other
> technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their
> forums.
> When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just keep on
> programming.
>

Although far from an admittance that they are wrong, ComputerWorld has seen fit to post the following:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9021399&pageNumber=1


As for the quantity of posts, I have found that when I use the other technologies I have no choice but to ask lots of questions on their forums. When using CF I don't seem to ask nearly as many questions. I just keep on programming.

re: and with such advocates as Ben Forta and others,

Advocates are a dime a dozen. What cf needs is adopters. Adoption rates
speak far louder than advocates! Particulalry when teh biggest advocate
suggest that cf people learn Java! (in the interests of context, he said to
learn it in addition to CF, but what a way to scare the crap out of cf's
primary audeince - newbs)




"amers" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f377o9$mab$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Each language has it's uses, PHP, Perl, .NET, ColdFusion.. with that
> said, I
> don't believe ColdFusion is dead. It's not even dying, they seem to be
> making
> vast improvements all the time with it. Languages overtime must evolve or
> they
> do get outdated and then useless. CF isn't there yet, and with such
> advocates
> as Ben Forta and others, hopefully it won't be there for a long time
> coming...
>

Insident wrote:
> yeah sure, seeing as you are the big boss of the coldfusion forums. Can I
> get an email address for you, pehaps I ought to get permission prior to
> posting??

andy, you already have my email address, as i have dozens for you. andy, i was
wondering when you & your aliases would crawl out from under your rock.

but anyways andy, thanks for this email address, another one for the filter.

The sky pretty much has fallen, cfml is a mere shell of what it used to be
and this common knowledge in web developer circles. coldfusion just isn't
the go these days and nine time out of ten it isn't even placed on the table
for consideration. Thats not to say that people out there are not using it,
but it is to say that there is a context and validity to the comments that
"cfml is dead".

yes, yes, the trolls are coming out of the woodwork, but that does not
change things.




"PaulH **AdobeCommunityExpert**" <paul@sustainableGIS.com> wrote in message
news:f397pn$2oh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Insident wrote:
>> The definition of the sky falling relates to the amount of people
>> ditching
>
> not sure about the sky falling but the troll droppings sure are. give it
> rest already.