Coldfusion vs ASP .Net PHP etc.

>>Again, ColdFusion is a wonderful product and it is robust, too. It just
>>suffers
from a total lack of commitment by it's owners

Not really, I think its more a case of only committing prortional to the
returns. CF isn't going to make them enough money to warrant the kind of
money we would LIKE to see spent on it. Adoption rates are relatively low
and there is no real reason to expect them to pick up given the qulaity of
what is available freely or in a much more flexible manner.

They are probably spending the bare minimum needed to keep it alive whilst
still getting something close to a profit from it. Really, I dont think teh
product belongs in teh hands of Adobe - give it to the people, or give it to
a corporate entity that cares a bit more about it.



"Karen_Little" <karen@littleviews.com> wrote in message
news:eengmf$lek$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Again, ColdFusion is a wonderful product and it is robust, too. It just
> suffers
> from a total lack of commitment by it's owners - Macromedia, then Adobe.
>
> Macromedia and Adobe were/are both graphics companies, not software
> houses.
> The first step I'd take as the new owner of ColdFusion is to stop hitting
> programmers with NEW NEW NEW (which are just reconceived OLD OLD OLD) and
> start
> providing more tools, like, of course, the robust IDE.
>
> I'd also work really hard to clarify just what ColdFusion does so that
> experts
> (like myself to a degree) don't face recruiters who hire for ColdFusion
> but
> quiz on .net and other things. The more programmers are happy, the more
> they
> will talk up product.
>
> I think a ColdFusion issue is "how do you work with a Flash developer"
> rather
> than "you need to do both." The base isn't so strong that you keep
> whacking
> programmers over the head with addins, especially addins that can be used
> by
> competing systems (like - if Adobe were committed to CF, it and the Flash
> server would be one and the same, or so tightly integrated that buyers
> would
> think Flash/CF without blinking). I could go on.
>
>
>
>
>

Again, ColdFusion is a wonderful product and it is robust, too. It just suffers from a total lack of commitment by it's owners - Macromedia, then Adobe.

Macromedia and Adobe were/are both graphics companies, not software houses. The first step I'd take as the new owner of ColdFusion is to stop hitting programmers with NEW NEW NEW (which are just reconceived OLD OLD OLD) and start providing more tools, like, of course, the robust IDE.

I'd also work really hard to clarify just what ColdFusion does so that experts (like myself to a degree) don't face recruiters who hire for ColdFusion but quiz on .net and other things. The more programmers are happy, the more they will talk up product.

I think a ColdFusion issue is "how do you work with a Flash developer" rather than "you need to do both." The base isn't so strong that you keep whacking programmers over the head with addins, especially addins that can be used by competing systems (like - if Adobe were committed to CF, it and the Flash server would be one and the same, or so tightly integrated that buyers would think Flash/CF without blinking). I could go on.

>>perhaps Adobe would like to
> simply give me their CF division, so I can start making a difference with
> it.

I'm all for that! You couldn't be any worse and could even be a whole lot
better!

Can you make coldfusion available in the usual way a product of this price
is made available. Oh, you know, bundled with an IDE for example! I know,
seeing as hardly anybody uses coldfusion, why not give it away open source
fashion, make your money with this great new IDE you have developed?

Why not make sure it has at least ALL of the features that the open source
and freely available stuff has too, less reason for folk not to take it
seriously.



"Karen_Little" <karen@littleviews.com> wrote in message
news:eelql0$gnn$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Well, you have a dim view of CF and I have a dim view of .net. Given that
> money
> is spent, it is like a discussion on who bought the best car.
>
> Where we do agree is that Macromedia and Adobe apparently do not
> understand
> what CF is all about - a coding environment.
>
> I can think of many ways to promote the system and perhaps Adobe would
> like to
> simply give me their CF division, so I can start making a difference with
> it.
> :-)
>

Well, you have a dim view of CF and I have a dim view of .net. Given that money is spent, it is like a discussion on who bought the best car.

Where we do agree is that Macromedia and Adobe apparently do not understand what CF is all about - a coding environment.

I can think of many ways to promote the system and perhaps Adobe would like to simply give me their CF division, so I can start making a difference with it. :-)

>>You can't do art with
ColdFusion, so push it into the background.

Yes, but Adobe are not stupid. They can see the situation and what they are
up against. You have open source system like Ruby On Rails available for
free which are far superior to coldfusion in tems of RAD development. You
have Asp.Net and the free Visual Web Developer, again, exteremely RAD and
much better priced.Even crummy PHP has an order of magnitude more followers
than CF. There is simplly way too much competition for Adobe. Even ISP's are
not bothering to pick it up - you need a specialised host. So it's never
really going to be popular enough to make them big dollars.

In other words, they can only spend so much money on CF before it starts to
run at a loss. Personally, I think the budget they must be on with CF
wouldn't allow for it to be marketed seriously. I fully expect them to be as
lame at marketing it as MM were. I remember the MM website, in the
Dreamweaver section, there was a 'related products' list and CF didn't even
appear in it! (However, on the ColdFusion page under 'related products'
dreamweaver did appear.)

Aside from the competition being overwhelming, Adobe are not even the right
people to be marketing CF. Perception wise, Adobe are not known for selling
middleware or coding platforms, they are the "photoshop" people. They can
market it creative types, non coders, to some degree, but they can't really
hope to market it well to pro developers.






>> Adobe should sell the product to a company that would want to run with it
and
do us all a favor.


"Karen_Little" <karen@littleviews.com> wrote in message
news:eekvl1$guv$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> ColdFusion is excellent and I'd recommend it to anyone. While I
appreciate
> Allaire wanting to cash out, had they kept it up, I think CF would have
become
> a strong contender.
>
> Today's marketing of CF is just a mess. Click on to adobe's home page and
you
> have to wonder what Adobe's focus is. Well, flash flash flash to
complement
> photoshop-related things BUT look at that home page. There's ColdFusion in
tiny
> type. Why not have www.Coldfusion.com and really have an exciting portal
for
> it? Instead, it almost seems like an afterthought. You can't do art with
> ColdFusion, so push it into the background.
>
> Adobe should sell the product to a company that would want to run with it
and
> do us all a favor.
>
>
>

ColdFusion is excellent and I'd recommend it to anyone. While I appreciate Allaire wanting to cash out, had they kept it up, I think CF would have become a strong contender.

Today's marketing of CF is just a mess. Click on to adobe's home page and you have to wonder what Adobe's focus is. Well, flash flash flash to complement photoshop-related things BUT look at that home page. There's ColdFusion in tiny type. Why not have www.Coldfusion.com and really have an exciting portal for it? Instead, it almost seems like an afterthought. You can't do art with ColdFusion, so push it into the background.

Adobe should sell the product to a company that would want to run with it and do us all a favor.

These days you don't choose coldfusion - it chooses you! It's not something
one would normally choose to learn and then go seeking work, there just
isn't the amount of work needed to make this viable. I guess you need to but
put in that special and rare circumstance where learning CF is a
requirement.

"Karen_Little" <karen@littleviews.com> wrote in message
news:eeikoc$qci$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Flagg - In my opinion, the biggest problem is the lack of developer base.
>
> I just did two www.dice.com searchs for New York in the last 14 days.
> ColdFusion came up with 23 jobs, most of which were temp. .Net came up
with 656
> jobs.
>
>
>

>> You can pretty much ignore the
opinion

The miniute I see sentances like this, I figure I am around ignorance. If
you cannot see where, how, why I fom these opinions, then you aint living in
the real world.

"JPfeff" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:eejmuc$3od$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Nice to see our resident troll having fun again. You can pretty much
> ignore the
> opinion of someone that says such absurd things such as CF being slow to
> develop in and being only for newbies and for small sites. You simply
> cannot
> really get good educated opinions on this forum when such FUD is so
> readily
> spread around. Your best bet is to use other CF groups that are a bit more
> moderated than this one.
>
> For what it's worth, I work for a company that continues to do mostly
> ColdFusion work and has expanded our client base every year. Our clients
> don't
> care what we do their sites in, they care about results. And we can
> provide
> great results using CF, on very tight time schedules.
>
> John P
>
>
>

John P - ColdFusion is an excellent system. I agree with you 100%. The "dissing" is like hearing players talk to one another in the heat of a game.

That said, Microsoft pushed the standard to make everyone want to "like it." Go look at the job ads for ColdFusion programmers. Every one says they want a crack CF programmer with an entire .net skillset.

How about using CF's XML tags? Great, right? But go up against a hiring body, and they'll start asking how you can roll your own or use the .net solution.

Does CF do a great job in interfacing with SQLserver and the ilk? Yes! But go before a hiring body and they'll ask you how many stored procedures you've crafted along with server-related work.

Adobe would do itself a great service to read this and formulate support for the CF programmers that are just whacked in the marketplace when they go for jobs as CF programmers.

This is a real problem, and it has nothing to do with the high quality of CF itself.

Nice to see our resident troll having fun again. You can pretty much ignore the opinion of someone that says such absurd things such as CF being slow to develop in and being only for newbies and for small sites. You simply cannot really get good educated opinions on this forum when such FUD is so readily spread around. Your best bet is to use other CF groups that are a bit more moderated than this one.

For what it's worth, I work for a company that continues to do mostly ColdFusion work and has expanded our client base every year. Our clients don't care what we do their sites in, they care about results. And we can provide great results using CF, on very tight time schedules.

John P