Should I use Coldfusion?

> As to the abundance of conferences - I take it that you disagree with my
> comment that thyere are far less than there used to be. Do what I did,
> call Adobe/MM and they tell you I am right. If you don't care or can't be
> bothered, fair enough.

There are CF clubs in every major city I know of. They usually
meet monthly and have guest speakers (like Forta), informational
discussions, etc. How many PHP and ASP conferences have you
seen lately?

I hear what you are saying - but it simply isn't typical feedback. The CF
death issue IS very real to MANY people. Fact is, of cours, it is not dead
in reality. What folk really mean is that is no longer at critical mass -
that being the point at which a healthy industry can be sustained around it.

It's interesting you mention the MAC issue. I had a guy say just last week -
"didn't coldfusion die off along with the MAC" He clearly felt that macs
were no longer a viable option for your average joe. I think he's right too.
But of course, MACs are still going strong in certain segements. While CF is
clearly more "dead" than MACS, I certainly do see your point here.


"MaryJo" <maryjo@cfwebstore.com> wrote in message
news:f5fjjb$8a5$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Apparently real facts are still not forthcoming. I personally though have
> seen
> my sales go up every year (with limited to no marketing on my part) in
> spite of
> more competing products coming out...how could that happen if fewer and
> fewer
> developers are using ColdFusion? CFUnited also grows in numbers every
> year, and
> I personally have not noticed any decrease in interest in the product,
> everywhere I have lived there's been a user group and jobs available. In
> fact,
> I'm often surprised by how many people know of it. Just a couple days ago
> I was
> chatting with my neighbor and mentioned that I work with ColdFusion and
> she
> said "oh, that's what they are building our web site in". Is CF the
> biggest
> fish in the pond? No, and it probably never will be. That doesn't mean it
> still
> can't be successful. It wasn't that long ago people were saying Macs and
> Apple
> were dead too. ;-) One look at CF8 is certainly enough to convince *me*
> that I
> haven't made a mistake by sticking with it.
>
>

Apparently real facts are still not forthcoming. I personally though have seen my sales go up every year (with limited to no marketing on my part) in spite of more competing products coming out...how could that happen if fewer and fewer developers are using ColdFusion? CFUnited also grows in numbers every year, and I personally have not noticed any decrease in interest in the product, everywhere I have lived there's been a user group and jobs available. In fact, I'm often surprised by how many people know of it. Just a couple days ago I was chatting with my neighbor and mentioned that I work with ColdFusion and she said "oh, that's what they are building our web site in". Is CF the biggest fish in the pond? No, and it probably never will be. That doesn't mean it still can't be successful. It wasn't that long ago people were saying Macs and Apple were dead too. ;-) One look at CF8 is certainly enough to convince *me* that I haven't made a mistake by sticking with it.

re: I DO get it. Do you?

I think I made my point well enoughthe first time :)

As to the abundance of conferences - I take it that you disagree with my
comment that thyere are far less than there used to be. Do what I did, call
Adobe/MM and they tell you I am right. If you don't care or can't be
bothered, fair enough.

re: They're putting a good bit more
> time and money into it again...do you get it

No, they're not. They're handling it pretty much the same way MM did.
Minimimal investment as possible - its a "b" grade product for them and they
know it can't compete well in todays market. They're not stupid.

re: Where are your thank you's you wrote about?

Again, do your own leg work and read through all topics and threads about
this. There are plenty who agree and plenty who use the advice to make a
more informed decision. And do me a favor and stop acting like I am knocking
coldfusion when you know full well its the adoption of it I am banging on
about. Cheap shots only belittle your valid points.

Remember, the tiniest fraction of ISP and hosters offer CF servers, and even
fewer individual develoers would pay the price for cf when there is
absolutely no need to, and you must surely know that CF isn't close to
being as popular as it used to be. One would think you know for yourself why
that is and that is has nothing at all to do with how good or bad the
technology itself is. CF has far more limitations than advanatges in the
typical cases - it's quite simple really.






"craigkaminsky" <info@imageaid.net> wrote in message
news:f5fh3v$5pp$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I do get it. So do my clients. We use ColdFusion and have brought in more
>and
> more developers, servers (with CFMX), more projects, and more money. I DO
> get
> it. Do you?
>
> And are you kidding me about travel and conferences? There's been two
> major CF
> conferences already (okay, CFUnited is up next week) this year in the US,
> CFUnited Europe is now slated for early 2008, Forta spent months on the
> road
> going to packed houses all over the US. That's not exactly cutting
> back...and
> let's keep in mind, Adobe is not Macromedia. They're putting a good bit
> more
> time and money into it again...do you get it
>
> And as Phil noted in an earlier post, you still avoid the real questions.
> Sad.
> Where are your thank you's you wrote about?
>

I do get it! So do my clients. We use ColdFusion and have brought in more and more developers, servers (with CFMX), more projects, and more money. Over the last three years alone our (primary) business has tripled...all with CF...all word of mouth...all with new developers getting into it. I DO get it. But, do you?

And are you kidding me about travel and conferences? There's been two major CF conferences already (okay, CFUnited is up next week) this year in the US, CFUnited Europe is now slated for early 2008, Forta spent months on the road going to packed houses all over the US. That's not exactly cutting back...and let's keep in mind, Adobe is not Macromedia. They're putting a good bit more time and money into it again...do you get it yet?

And as Phil noted in an earlier post, you still avoid the real questions. Sad. Where are the links to all those thank you's you wrote about? What about your actual CF skills? Do you ever help with technical stuff? C'mon...you're a freaking joke. If you want to really make a point, back it up with facts. Real facts...not I see it in Oz, so it must be true everywhere. Let's see you get some numbers on Adobe CF vs. .NET marketing or PHP or Ruby or any server software you want to try and use.

re: For marketing and your brilliant retort, please tell me which
server-software
is marketed outside its realm?

I didn't say "realm" - but for instance, php was marketed more on
Macromedia site than CF was (many many people complained about that). CF
used to advestised in generic pc magazines, they stopped that. The
conferences are new far and far between and they have reduced teh number of
locations they travel to. The marketing/sales in Aus was shut down. So on
and so forth...

re: it's from an existing customer base/word of mouth

Aha - finally you start to get it!



"craigkaminsky" <info@imageaid.net> wrote in message
news:f5ejm6$3k4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Campmag: I'll accept I'm wrong (I'm married...I live with being wrong)
> when you
> can show me/us that you actually get thank yous and the like. Please
> provide
> links to those posts where you are thanked so generously. I've perused
> these
> forums for years and have never seen you post anything but these types of
> posts.
>
> As to my other question, do you even know ColdFusion?
>
> For marketing and your brilliant retort, please tell me which
> server-software
> is marketed outside its realm? I'd say none. .NET is marketed in computer
> magazines and related sites. The open source servers are not marketed at
> all.
> Nor are Java servers marketed outside their respective worlds. The fact
> is,
> these are niche products for a limited set of people. What do you expect
> Adobe
> to do, run TV ads? They put their money where they need to...their
> customer
> base. Products in the web world don't expand because some company runs a
> bunch
> of ads...it's from an existing customer base/word of mouth (and yes, CF is
> less
> well-known but I've been using it for years and nearly every client I have
> worked with knows it, respects it and considers it (they don't all choose
> it
> but there's nothing wrong with that).
>

Massimo Foti said it better in the Dreamweaver.appdev forum once than I have
seen in this group for dealing with Andy (and his "friends")...A true tidbit
for a twit!...Massimo you rock, as always!..........

--------- snip -----------------------
Below you can find excellent suggestions on how to improve your trolling
skills:
http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

Don't get me wrong, your post was better than the average troll, but there
is definitively room for improvements :-)

Massimo
--------- snip -----------------------
I had to share this.......

_|_|
_|_| Dave in Orlando
_|_|

---

Campag wrote:
| re: And, for the record, you don't help people.
|
| Yes, I do. I get "Thank You" and "I agree" quite often. You are wrong
| - but can YOU accpet that?
|
| re: Spending millions on
|| development (and already at work on v9), thousands upon thousands of
|| dollars to
|| promote it
|
| They barely promote it outside of the Adobe community. Why do you
| think its considered obscure and constantly accused of being dead or
| outdated or non-scalavle? Becuase its not well marketed. I rest my
| case. (for now)
|
|
|
| "craigkaminsky" <info@imageaid.net> wrote in message
| news:f5bbv8$pl$1@forums.macromedia.com...
|| "Does not helping you equate to not helping no one? I think not - I
|| get plenty of agreement and have assisted some people in making
|| better choices. "
||
|| You're such a hypocrite, it's ridiculous. One the one hand you try to
|| dissuade
|| people from getting involved in CF and on the other you complain how
|| it would
|| be great to have a more robust CF community. Make up your mind. Do
|| you want to
|| help or not? Clearly, you chose not.
||
|| And, for the record, you don't help people. Negative b$tching and
|| whining about something isn't helpful. If you want a better
|| community (more developers), then quit bashing it and start
|| promoting it. Or, better, yet, prove you can actually do something
|| in this language and help people with their
|| technical questions. Or are you completely incapable of coding in
|| ColdFusion?
||
|| As for your knowledge of Adobe, you don't know jack. Spending
|| millions on development (and already at work on v9), thousands upon
|| thousands of dollars to
|| promote it (Ben Forta's US tour showcasing Scorpio was/is not free)
|| with product tours, conferences and the like is pretty solid
|| marketing for a server-side programming language.
||
|| It may not be the biggest language (or even close) in the world but
|| that's what makes the web great. There's plenty of room for everyone.
||
|| tclaremont: GREAT link!

re: Just because you are convinced you are right, does not make it so.

I agree totally. However think about the following statement. Read it for
comprehension before you respond. Read it multiple times if you need to.
Have someone else explain it to you if need be.

"Just because you are convinced you are right, does not make it so."




"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f5e0dt$a62$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Andley, think about the following statement. Read it for comprehension
> before
> you respond. Read it multiple times if you need to. Have someone else
> explain
> it to you if need be.
>
> Just because you are convinced you are right, does not make it so.
>
> You cannot expect to sit there on the outside of the ring and tell people
> with
> 10 years of CF programming and success that you are right. The majority of
> the
> people in this community use CF every day. They use various development
> environments successfully. They solve problems with CF all the time. They
> have
> obviously determined that the product is worthy of the price. Whether you
> think
> so or not is pretty much irrelevent.
>
> Most of the people on this board have convinced their management that CF
> is
> the tool to use. For whatever reason, they have been able to persuade
> their
> employer to either stick with or start using CF. You apparently have not
> been
> able to do so. You can blame Adobe for that, or you can ask yourself why
> others
> have been successful with CF where you have not.
>
> You can complain that there is not a selection of books to choose from.
> What
> you can't seem to accept is that the demand is not necessarilly linked to
> the
> quality of the product. After ten years of CF programming, I have used a
> book
> to find the answer to a CF problem a half dozen times. When I adopt CF8
> this
> summer I can predict with a reasonable amount of confidence that I will
> not be
> buying a book on it. I am a web developer. I work ON the web. The answers
> to my
> questions are easy to find ON the web. When I work on my classic cars, I
> buy
> books because I am nowhere near a computer. When I work on the web...I use
> the
> web.
>
> Anyone reading your tomes is perfectly willing to conceed that CF is not
> the
> tool FOR YOU. Your inability to cope without an integrated IDE. Your
> inability
> to cope without a plethora of hot-off-the-press books on CF. Your snobbish
> attitude of having to use only the most popular tool out there. Your lack
> of
> ability to find a host in your neighborhood. These are all perfectly valid
> reasons why CF is not the tool for you. But face it... that does not mean
> that
> it is not the tool for someone else.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Campmag: I'll accept I'm wrong (I'm married...I live with being wrong) when you can show me/us that you actually get thank yous and the like. Please provide links to those posts where you are thanked so generously. I've perused these forums for years and have never seen you post anything but these types of posts.

As to my other question, do you even know ColdFusion?

For marketing and your brilliant retort, please tell me which server-software is marketed outside its realm? I'd say none. .NET is marketed in computer magazines and related sites. The open source servers are not marketed at all. Nor are Java servers marketed outside their respective worlds. The fact is, these are niche products for a limited set of people. What do you expect Adobe to do, run TV ads? They put their money where they need to...their customer base. Products in the web world don't expand because some company runs a bunch of ads...it's from an existing customer base/word of mouth (and yes, CF is less well-known but I've been using it for years and nearly every client I have worked with knows it, respects it and considers it (they don't all choose it but there's nothing wrong with that).

Andley, think about the following statement. Read it for comprehension before you respond. Read it multiple times if you need to. Have someone else explain it to you if need be.

Just because you are convinced you are right, does not make it so.

You cannot expect to sit there on the outside of the ring and tell people with 10 years of CF programming and success that you are right. The majority of the people in this community use CF every day. They use various development environments successfully. They solve problems with CF all the time. They have obviously determined that the product is worthy of the price. Whether you think so or not is pretty much irrelevent.

Most of the people on this board have convinced their management that CF is the tool to use. For whatever reason, they have been able to persuade their employer to either stick with or start using CF. You apparently have not been able to do so. You can blame Adobe for that, or you can ask yourself why others have been successful with CF where you have not.

You can complain that there is not a selection of books to choose from. What you can't seem to accept is that the demand is not necessarilly linked to the quality of the product. After ten years of CF programming, I have used a book to find the answer to a CF problem a half dozen times. When I adopt CF8 this summer I can predict with a reasonable amount of confidence that I will not be buying a book on it. I am a web developer. I work ON the web. The answers to my questions are easy to find ON the web. When I work on my classic cars, I buy books because I am nowhere near a computer. When I work on the web...I use the web.

Anyone reading your tomes is perfectly willing to conceed that CF is not the tool FOR YOU. Your inability to cope without an integrated IDE. Your inability to cope without a plethora of hot-off-the-press books on CF. Your snobbish attitude of having to use only the most popular tool out there. Your lack of ability to find a host in your neighborhood. These are all perfectly valid reasons why CF is not the tool for you. But face it... that does not mean that it is not the tool for someone else.