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_Eugeny_Hristov_
Participant
February 19, 2008
Question

Multi-page spanable container?

  • February 19, 2008
  • 10 replies
  • 774 views
Hi, I'm trying to create a sidebar (Note, Warning, you know) that uses different shading than the body text.

Right now I'm using a graphic frame, then I draw a shaded rectangle in it, then I place an text frame in the rectangle to be able to place text.

The problem is that this clumsy structure cannot span multiple pages, and I am forced to leave huge empty spaces around the document (or to break the text in two sidebars manually). Not to mention that i have to resize manually all three objects when I change the text.

I tried every combination of objects one can imagine to create a container that can span pages automatically (like connected text frames do with text.)

Can anybody help?
    This topic has been closed for replies.

    10 replies

    P
    peter minneapolis
    Participating Frequently
    February 23, 2008
    Hi, Eugeny:

    I just tested this and it works!

    * Create a second text flow frame on the master page(s) for the sidebar.
    * Adjust the main and sidebar frames to suit.
    * Select the sidebar text frame and apply a fill color
    * On the body page, type the sidebar text in the sidebar frame. It will cross page breaks.
    * To adjust the vertical starting position of sidebar text, insert an anchored frame at cursor position. Fill it with white. Adjust the height of the frame as needed.

    If you need to extract paragraphs of text from the main frame into the sidebar, use cross-references. You can import text insets into either column.

    If main-column text changes, you'll need to resize anchored frames in the sidebar.

    HTH

    Regards,

    Peter Gold
    KnowHow ProServices
    A
    Art Campbell
    Inspiring
    February 22, 2008
    Eugeny,

    You could use the table suggestion discussed earlier.

    Or prepare a small herd of master pages with a variety of sidebar depths and call the appropriate one from the tag.

    Or you could accept the fact that the software is unlikely to read your mind and automatically change the depth of the frame based on length of content. And adjust the depth manually.

    Cheers,
    Art
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    _Eugeny_Hristov_Author
    Participant
    February 22, 2008
    I tried applying a custom master page using a paragraph tags, but it applies whatever the change is to the whole page (exactly what I've expected, but I tried it anyway). What if I want to format a 3 line paragraph only and leave the rest of the page unchanged?
    _
    _Eugeny_Hristov_Author
    Participant
    February 22, 2008
    As far as I know, sidebars are called this way not because they are located to left or right of the main story, but because sidebars are presenting sidelights of the main story. Because I'm not a native English speaker I tried to clarify the term with "Note, Warning".

    So what I am trying to do is to set apart paragraphs that are standing in the main text flow. And I want these paragraphs to auto-break between pages as normal paragraphs do, but with added art.

    I mentioned "different shading" because I would be reconciled with shading if I can get standard paragraph behavior out of something else.

    Thanks!
    _
    _Kenneth_Benson_
    Participating Frequently
    February 22, 2008
    > So what I am trying to do is to set apart paragraphs that are
    > standing in the main text flow. And I want these paragraphs to
    > auto-break between pages as normal paragraphs do, but with added art.


    Okay, I understand. In Word, you would achieve this with "Shading". It
    puts shading behind each line of type (like a highlighter). Not sure
    what you mean by "added art".

    The only way I know to do this in Frame is with a table. Art and Riley
    have already covered this pretty well. The problem of table rows
    breaking as complete units is just something you have to live with (and
    prevent, as much as possible, by keeping these elements short and each
    paragraph as a separate row in the table).

    One fairly ugly workaround is to paste text from a saved email (so that
    each line ends in CR/LF) and then Convert to Table. This will give you a
    table with each line in its own row. Kind of hard to edit, and it takes
    some fiddling with the email app to get the line length right. But when
    you're done, you've got a table that allows breaks mid-paragraph. Set up
    your table in a style and you can make it pretty automatic.

    The only app I know that makes this easily possible is (was?) Ventura,
    which allows background shading as a character style. You might be able
    to achieve this is Indesign, with customized underline or strikethrough,
    but I've not played with it yet.

    Another option is to forget the shading and set off the Note or Warning
    with rules above and below, or sans serif type for the Note and serif
    type for the body, or any other of a half dozen other graphic art
    techniques for setting off "different" text.

    --
    Kenneth Benson
    Pegasus Type, Inc.
    www.pegtype.com
    _
    _Barbara_Szczesniak_
    Participating Frequently
    February 20, 2008
    Eugeny,

    Just to clarify: You want the main text margins to flow around (above and below) the sidebar, rather than the sidebar text flow taking up the entire left or right portion of any page a sidebar happens to appear on. Is this correct? If the sidebar runs from paragraph 3-6, paragraphs 1, 2, and 7 are aligned as they would be without the sidebar?

    And yes, as you say, the solution is simple, except in the case where the sidebar crosses pages.

    The only solution that I think of is to use custom master pages with sidebar text flows and a custom paragraph tag, but, as a part of final layout just before publication (this means starting from the front of the book), manually override the master pages of the individual pages on which sidebars appear to adjust the size of the sidebar and main text frames. Start from the beginning, as doing the first will affect the flow of all following text.

    I really hate to offer this solution, as manual overrides go against the grain. Hopefully, someone else can come up with something more elegant.

    Barb Szczesniak
    A
    Art Campbell
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2008
    Eugeny,

    ***
    Master pages, such as one with a sidebar set aside, can be invoked
    automatically by a paragraph tag. Which means that if you paginate
    your sidebar with the appropriate tag, the Sidebar master page would
    be invoked only for pages that contain that tag. And not for others.
    Which means no wasted space.

    ***
    The usual way to treat cells with abnormally long text passages is to
    create break points by using multiple rows, or inserting blank rows,
    so you have some control over where the table breaks.
    But that's the best/easiest solution for what you want.

    Cheers,
    Art
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    _Eugeny_Hristov_Author
    Participant
    February 20, 2008
    Thanks for your insights!

    Obviously I expect too much out of poor FrameMaker :-)

    Kenneth: Text frames are not auto-expandable like, for example, table cells are. I'll still have to manually place and resize frames. And I can't do with text frame what I can do with graphics in terms of visuals.

    Art: Terminology aside (you got me :-),) custom master pages will do me no good as this means I still have to put aside whole pages for the sidebar, resulting in unwanted empty spaces in the text flow.

    Riley: Even if I manage to get the same looks as my current design using tables, typing too much text in a cell sends the *whole* cell to the next page. Which is exactly what I am trying to overcome.

    Anyway, thanks to everybody!
    _
    _Kenneth_Benson_
    Participating Frequently
    February 20, 2008
    > Kenneth: Text frames are not auto-expandable like, for example, table
    > cells are. I'll still have to manually place and resize frames. And I
    > can't do with text frame what I can do with graphics in terms of
    > visuals.


    Neither are graphic frames auto-expandable, and from your post, you're
    not using tables now, so why are you comparing text frames to tables?
    What are you trying to do with visuals that you can't do with text
    frames? Your first post just mentioned "different shading". The choices
    for fills are the same for a graphic frame as they are for a text frame.
    AFAIK, any shading that you can put in a graphic frame can also be put
    in a text frame.

    And you called what you want to accomplish a "sidebar", which, to me,
    means something out of the main text column. How do you get a table out
    of the column (without putting it in a separate text frame, or without
    expanding the table from the column to the margin)?

    --
    Kenneth Benson
    Pegasus Type, Inc.
    www.pegtype.com
    A
    Anonymous
    February 19, 2008
    Eugeny:

    Consider a borderless or semi-borderless table with as many columns as you need to achieve supplementary effects.

    For example, I've historically placed my note and note icons in the left unbordered column of a two-column borderless table. The right column has top and bottom borders only and contains the associated note or warning text.

    You can then also shade the table columns as desired...

    Cheers & hope this helps,
    Riley
    A
    Art Campbell
    Inspiring
    February 19, 2008
    First, a question about terminology... In most tech documents, Warnings and Notes are relatively small and only span a few lines. Sidebars, however, are short articles that complement the main text and may span several pages.

    If you're actually talking about a short note or warning, I'd set it up as a table in the main text flow.

    If it is a true sidebar or there are going to be a number of them, I'd create a new master page that holds a Sidebar text frame, maybe set up as background text.

    Art
    _
    _Kenneth_Benson_
    Participating Frequently
    February 19, 2008
    Why not just use a regular text frame, apply a fill, and then connect
    one frame to another across pages? You shouldn't need the graphic frame.

    --
    Kenneth Benson
    Pegasus Type, Inc.
    www.pegtype.com
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