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Question

PSD Filesize discrepencies with adjustment / empty layers.

Forum|Forum|2 years ago
April 28, 2023
18 replies
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Adding empty or adjustment layers (With no mask) to some 16 Bit PSDs seems to unecessarily bloat the filesize.

Example:

Open a 36MP camera image (198Mb)
Add a new, empty layer
Save the file (344Mb)

Open a 36MP camera image (198Mb)
Add a new, curves adjustment layer with no mask
Save the file (344Mb)

It would make sense of course if by adding an adjustment layer with a mask, that the filesize increases because you have to accommodate the alpha channel. However the adjustment layer here has no alpha , and the empty layer is... empty (Though of course COULD be stored as 36million 0x0000 RGBA pixels, so perhaps this is a valid result here).

Subsequent layers don't appeart to attract this "Layer tax", so if I add 5 curves layers the filesize doesn't bloat beyond 344Mb.

Furthermore I've had a friend, also on Windows with also the latest version of PS CC perform this test, and as far as we can tell his files behave as you would expect - adjustment layers without masks do not significantly increase filesize.

Save history to medatada is turned OFF, Compress PSD/PSB is turned ON on both machines.

Some data that yeilded some very interesting results:

Base PSD image exported from Adobe Camera RAW: 206MB

- Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer with blank mask: 171MB

- Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer without mask: 171 MB

Base PSD image exported from CaptureOne 20: 206MB

- Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer with blank mask: 339MB

- Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer without mask: 339 MB

Base Uncompressed TIFF image exported from CaptureOne 20: 206MB

Immediately "Save As" the TIFF to a PSD, and reopen the PSD, then:

-Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer with blank mask: 135MB

- Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer without mask: 135 MB

CaptureOne20 is perhaps indicating "Old" PSDs that demand compatibility behaviour from PS? I've posted metadata from the files below, and I can't see anything interesting in it, mind you.

What's really bizarre though is when I open the TIFF and Save-As to PSD which yields a smaller file than the original PSD, despite being... the same file in terms of composition.

Anyone any offers?

Windows

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D Fosse

Community Expert

Dave, I've noticed for a long time that floating layers always take up more space than flat Background layers, with identical content. I'm assuming that's because of a large number of "null" properties - things that would be supported in a floating layer - but that are just thrown out in the Background layer because it wouldn't be supported anyway..

davescm

Community Expert

When testing, forget the comparison of RAW images processed to RGB from two separate raw convertors. Both are likely to be significantly different in terms of noise and detail which will make a difference when compressing the file. Similarly TIFF uses different compression to Photoshop so you are comparing apples and pears.

Here is an example of the same image saved as PSD with compression off in all cases.

Background layer only 176 MB

Adjustment layer added no adjustment made (with compatibility off) 179MB

Adjustment layer added no adjustment made (with compatibility on ) 411 MB

No surprises in the above. The only test that slightly surprised me was :

Background layer converted to Layer 0 (with compatibility off) 238MB. An increase of 35%, which could be due to the need to add an additional channel for alpha that is not required in a background layer.

Why the snarky comment at the end of each of your posts?

Dave

DenyerproAuthor

Known Participant

Metadata from a PSD from CaptureOne:

<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="Adobe XMP Core 9.0-c001 79.c0204b2, 2023/02/09-06:26:14        ">
   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xmp="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/"
            xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
            xmlns:lightroom="http://ns.adobe.com/lightroom/1.0/"
            xmlns:tiff="http://ns.adobe.com/tiff/1.0/"
            xmlns:exif="http://ns.adobe.com/exif/1.0/"
            xmlns:photoshop="http://ns.adobe.com/photoshop/1.0/">
         <xmp:CreatorTool>Capture One 20 Windows</xmp:CreatorTool>
         <xmp:CreateDate>2023-04-28T14:32:04+01:00</xmp:CreateDate>
         <xmp:ModifyDate>2023-04-28T14:32:04+01:00</xmp:ModifyDate>
         <xmp:MetadataDate>2023-04-28T14:32:04+01:00</xmp:MetadataDate>
         <dc:rights>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">Copyright Denyer - All rights reserved</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </dc:rights>
         <dc:subject>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li>Georgia</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </dc:subject>
         <dc:format>application/vnd.adobe.photoshop</dc:format>
         <lightroom:hierarchicalSubject>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li>Georgia Price</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </lightroom:hierarchicalSubject>
         <tiff:ImageWidth>4912</tiff:ImageWidth>
         <tiff:ImageLength>7360</tiff:ImageLength>
         <tiff:XResolution>300/1</tiff:XResolution>
         <tiff:YResolution>300/1</tiff:YResolution>
         <tiff:ResolutionUnit>2</tiff:ResolutionUnit>
         <exif:ExifVersion>0221</exif:ExifVersion>
         <exif:PixelXDimension>4912</exif:PixelXDimension>
         <exif:PixelYDimension>7360</exif:PixelYDimension>
         <photoshop:ColorMode>3</photoshop:ColorMode>
         <photoshop:ICCProfile>Adobe RGB (1998)</photoshop:ICCProfile>
      </rdf:Description>
   </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>

Metadata from a CaptureOne TIFF saved as a PSD:

<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="Adobe XMP Core 9.0-c001 79.c0204b2, 2023/02/09-06:26:14        ">
   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xmp="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/"
            xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
            xmlns:lightroom="http://ns.adobe.com/lightroom/1.0/"
            xmlns:photoshop="http://ns.adobe.com/photoshop/1.0/"
            xmlns:xmpMM="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/mm/"
            xmlns:stEvt="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceEvent#"
            xmlns:stRef="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceRef#"
            xmlns:tiff="http://ns.adobe.com/tiff/1.0/"
            xmlns:exif="http://ns.adobe.com/exif/1.0/">
         <xmp:CreatorTool>Capture One 20 Windows</xmp:CreatorTool>
         <xmp:CreateDate>2023-04-28T14:33:38+01:00</xmp:CreateDate>
         <xmp:ModifyDate>2023-04-28T14:34:28+01:00</xmp:ModifyDate>
         <xmp:MetadataDate>2023-04-28T14:34:28+01:00</xmp:MetadataDate>
         <dc:rights>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">Copyright Denyer - All rights reserved</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </dc:rights>
         <dc:subject>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li>Georgia</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </dc:subject>
         <dc:format>application/vnd.adobe.photoshop</dc:format>
         <lightroom:hierarchicalSubject>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li>Georgia Price</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </lightroom:hierarchicalSubject>
         <photoshop:ColorMode>3</photoshop:ColorMode>
         <photoshop:ICCProfile>Adobe RGB (1998)</photoshop:ICCProfile>
         <xmpMM:InstanceID>xmp.iid:632e68e1-f3f3-4f46-b114-25e35da3a622</xmpMM:InstanceID>
         <xmpMM:DocumentID>adobe:docid:photoshop:9c34f028-862c-1143-87a3-b84b7f544a74</xmpMM:DocumentID>
         <xmpMM:OriginalDocumentID>xmp.did:cd10ec60-5926-844c-8ecc-f5c090047ca0</xmpMM:OriginalDocumentID>
         <xmpMM:History>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
                  <stEvt:action>saved</stEvt:action>
                  <stEvt:instanceID>xmp.iid:cd10ec60-5926-844c-8ecc-f5c090047ca0</stEvt:instanceID>
                  <stEvt:when>2023-04-28T14:34:28+01:00</stEvt:when>
                  <stEvt:softwareAgent>Adobe Photoshop 24.4 (Windows)</stEvt:softwareAgent>
                  <stEvt:changed>/</stEvt:changed>
               </rdf:li>
               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
                  <stEvt:action>converted</stEvt:action>
                  <stEvt:parameters>from image/tiff to application/vnd.adobe.photoshop</stEvt:parameters>
               </rdf:li>
               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
                  <stEvt:action>derived</stEvt:action>
                  <stEvt:parameters>converted from image/tiff to application/vnd.adobe.photoshop</stEvt:parameters>
               </rdf:li>
               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
                  <stEvt:action>saved</stEvt:action>
                  <stEvt:instanceID>xmp.iid:632e68e1-f3f3-4f46-b114-25e35da3a622</stEvt:instanceID>
                  <stEvt:when>2023-04-28T14:34:28+01:00</stEvt:when>
                  <stEvt:softwareAgent>Adobe Photoshop 24.4 (Windows)</stEvt:softwareAgent>
                  <stEvt:changed>/</stEvt:changed>
               </rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </xmpMM:History>
         <xmpMM:DerivedFrom rdf:parseType="Resource">
            <stRef:instanceID>xmp.iid:cd10ec60-5926-844c-8ecc-f5c090047ca0</stRef:instanceID>
            <stRef:documentID>xmp.did:cd10ec60-5926-844c-8ecc-f5c090047ca0</stRef:documentID>
            <stRef:originalDocumentID>xmp.did:cd10ec60-5926-844c-8ecc-f5c090047ca0</stRef:originalDocumentID>
         </xmpMM:DerivedFrom>
         <tiff:ImageWidth>4912</tiff:ImageWidth>
         <tiff:ImageLength>7360</tiff:ImageLength>
         <tiff:BitsPerSample>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li>16</rdf:li>
               <rdf:li>16</rdf:li>
               <rdf:li>16</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </tiff:BitsPerSample>
         <tiff:Compression>1</tiff:Compression>
         <tiff:PhotometricInterpretation>2</tiff:PhotometricInterpretation>
         <tiff:Orientation>1</tiff:Orientation>
         <tiff:SamplesPerPixel>3</tiff:SamplesPerPixel>
         <tiff:PlanarConfiguration>1</tiff:PlanarConfiguration>
         <tiff:XResolution>3000000/10000</tiff:XResolution>
         <tiff:YResolution>3000000/10000</tiff:YResolution>
         <tiff:ResolutionUnit>2</tiff:ResolutionUnit>
         <exif:ExifVersion>0221</exif:ExifVersion>
         <exif:ColorSpace>65535</exif:ColorSpace>
         <exif:PixelXDimension>4912</exif:PixelXDimension>
         <exif:PixelYDimension>7360</exif:PixelYDimension>
      </rdf:Description>
   </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>

--

DenyerproAuthor

Known Participant

OK we're down the rabbithole. Compatibility set to NEVER.

Base PSD image from Adobe RAW: 206MB

Base image plus Curves Adjustment Layer with blank mask: 171MB

Base image plus Curves Adjustment Layer without mask: 171 MB

Base PSD image from CaptureOne 20: 206MB

Base image plus Curves Adjustment Layer with blank mask: 339MB

Base image plus Curves Adjustment Layer without mask: 339 MB

Base Uncompressed TIFF image from CaptureOne 20: 206MB

(Immediately "Save As" this TIFF file to a PSD, then add layer/adjustment )

Base image Saved as PSD plus Curves Adjustment Layer with blank mask: 135MB

Base image plus Curves Adjustment Layer without mask: 135 MB

CaptureOne20 is indicating "Old" PSDs that demand compatibility behaviour from PS, perhaps ? What's really bizarre though is when I open the TIFF and Save-As to PSD which yields a smaller file than the original PSD, despite being... the same file in terms of composition.

Anyone else thoroughly confused?

--

DenyerproAuthor

Known Participant

(See edit, found something interesting!)

--

T

Test Screen Name

Legend

Well I'm surprised by your friend's results. Yours seem completely normal.

DenyerproAuthor

Known Participant

We checked the compatibility options and it did not appear to make any difference. (His files didn't bloat in any test other than creating a duplicate of the base layer, mine did and continue to do in all tests.)

EDIT - I had my friend repeat his tests, and we found something interesting. If the file is saved with compatibility mode enabled, and then you turn that setting OFF, the file will "remember" that this was set and create the bloat. If you have a fresh file and and then repeat the test, you don't get the bloat.

So it *is* the compatibility option, but I wasn't seeing a benefit because the files I was testing on had already been saved with compatibility mode enabled, which must flag that file (Thus occluding the change when turning the option off).

--

T

Test Screen Name

Legend

A file with only one layer and no adjustments etc. stores one copy of the image. As soon as you add layers, PSD must store each layer AND a composite. So I'd expect the size to double. The space is not used by the adjustment layer, so adding another shouldn't affect the size much. I believe that you can make a less compatible PSD (useless with most other apps) that doesn't store the composite. Maybe your friend does that.

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