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Trevor.Dennis
Community Expert
Community Expert
November 18, 2018
Question

Dag! What Have You Done

  • November 18, 2018
  • 5 replies
  • 2207 views

I've been following this story since the original incident ten days ago, but it just keeps getting better, so I have to share.   I'm not entirely sure how Dag is involved, but it is Norway, so it stands to reason that he must be.

It started with a billion krone frigate coming off second best after colliding with an oil tanker in a Norwegian fjord resulting in a huge rent in the side of the frigate.  The oil tanker is completely undamaged, so  it might be time for the world's navies to rethink their buying strategies.

They moved the sinking frigate to the rocky shoreline to prevent it from sinking.   Then embarked on a rescue mission trying to pull it up enough to patch the holes, using best quality Norwegian steel cable...

...which broke  and things have gone from very bad, to much worse.  I love the wee red life-raft.  Apparently no other Norwegian warships would go close to the life-raft in case they collided with it, and sank (the worships... not the life-raft).

Norwegian company Sotra Anchor & Chain says they should have used chain, which is stronger than steel cables, but the navel salvage team didn't ask.   This was the same navy that when contacted by the Maltese oil tanker's bridge asking if they knew they were on a collision course, responded, 'don't worry. we have it under control'.

Dag tells me that they don't have insurance for their warships, and  I can't imagine them getting insurance in future.  Well maybe for  the their little red life-rafts, but only third party liability to cover all the boats that sink after colliding with it.

I've not seen pictures of the shoreline, but my mind picture for a Norwegian fjord  is of  steep mountains coming down to the waterline.  We have the same thing here with our Marlborough Sounds, and what we learn in is that the angle above the waterline tends to continue below it.  The Sounds get very deep, very quickly.  It could be that another 25 metres from the shoreline, would drop the frigate _well_ below the surface, and present an  even worse problem.

The exception being where the end of a ridge  meets the water — you cut those corners off at your peril!   Those ridges tend to be great fishing spots, and many a boat  has sat on top of one for hours, and suddenly realised that the tide has grounded them! 

So Dag, what is the latest?  Is there much coverage over there, or are they keeping it a bit secret squirrel?

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    5 replies

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    December 1, 2018

    In case anyone's still watching, the post-crash investigation have published their preliminary findings. They have had full access to classified material. This wasn't to assign guilt, but establish a detailed timeline and record of what actually happened.

    They emphasize that no one single action or event caused the incident. It was a long chain of circumstances, decisions and actions that led up to the crash. But among the more spectacular contributing factors are these two:

    • The oil tanker left the terminal with full on-deck floodlighting, which they're not supposed to, and it still appeared to Helge Ingstad as part of an on-shore installation. It was lit up like a small city. In short, they saw it the whole time, but mistook its identity in that critical time-window.
    • The water-tight compartments of Helge Ingstad weren't water-tight after all. This was a flaw in the construction, and the Spanish shipyard may be in trouble. If this had been according to spec, the ship wouldn't have sunk, or at least not nearly as fast.

    There's a lot more to it. On that night, all the chicken came home to roost, as the saying goes.

    There's one more highly unofficial piece to the puzzle. In some interviews with people who have inside knowledge, in various capacities, it has been hinted at what has been called a "cowboy culture". That does not mean they're careless, but that risk is an accepted and indeed celebrated part of the proceedings. It's a sort of masculine ideal and tradition. Those who have read Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff" - the book; not the rather sanitized and romanticized film - will know what they mean by that.

    If that is true (and based on my own experience I suspect there might be something to it) - it certainly puts the whole "female navigators" talk to final shame. If there were, it happened despite that, not because of it. But we already knew that (and several high-ranking Navy officials have said so in public, repeatedly).

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    December 2, 2018

    And to complete the story: Helge Ingstad was a Norwegian explorer and adventurer, mostly famous for finding and excavating a Viking settlement in Newfoundland - thus proving that Christopher Columbus was preceded by about 500 years in his "discovery" of America. Obviously the continent had already been well and truly discovered by other people, but they didn't count back then. I'm sure Helge Ingstad himself appreciated the irony in this.

    Even more ironic is the fact that his name is now synonymous with a sunken, failed warship. That he would not appreciate.

    jane-e
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    December 2, 2018

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

    And to complete the story: Helge Ingstad was a Norwegian explorer and adventurer, mostly famous for finding and excavating a Viking settlement in Newfoundland - thus proving that Christopher Columbus was preceded by about 500 years in his "discovery" of America.

    While Columbus Day is still officially a national holiday, the tide has been turning against Christopher over the past few decades, and some cities are replacing it with “Indigenous Peoples Day”.

    Columbus Day gets dropped in favor of Indigenous Peoples Day in more parts of the US - CNN

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 19, 2018

    I'm speechless. Who even knows what an "esc0rt girl" is nowadays? And why would they care if they did?

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 19, 2018

    Back to the original story.

    A thought-provoking feature story in one of our major newspapers today, written by a former instructor at the Naval Academy. Yes, he probably has a stake in this, but nevertheless.

    He starts, "When accidents happen, it's easy to look for blame. Since it usually goes without incident, when something does go wrong it has to be because of an error. Somebody has to take the blame for that error" (my translation).

    His point is that these are incredibly complex systems. A long chain of events, none of which in themselves unusual or unexpected, and up to that point not resulting in any ill consequences. But every once in a blue moon they all come together and push in the same direction. And it goes wrong - even though everybody had good reasons to do what they did, based on the information and experience available at the time.

    In hindsight we always see actions in light of their consequences. That hindsight is a luxury not available before it happens.

    I think it's a good point. The tendency in these investigations is usually to find a scapegoat, feed him to the sharks, job done.

    John T Smith
    Community Expert
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    November 19, 2018

    Aside from laying blame on a person, or a ship's system that malfunctioned, finding out why it happened will (or should) make sure the same thing doesn't happen again

    At least I've not read here about any loss of life, like when that show off Italian captain ran his cruise ship aground

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2018

    Oh, and I reread what I wrote about "enjoying" my military service. You have to read that in context. This wasn't Syria or Afghanistan where people actually get killed. At that time and place, nobody thought it would ever get serious. It was just a job, and since everybody had to do it unless they could wriggle their way out, I just counted myself lucky that I got an interesting assignment, instead of eating mud in the regular Army service.

    jane-e
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2018

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

    Oh, and I reread what I wrote about "enjoying" my military service. You have to read that in context.

    You did qualify it with, “Even my old hippie/anti-authoritarian self quite enjoyed it - not for any ideological reasons, but because it was an interesting experience,” and yes, it does sound like an interesting experience. We more often called ourselves “freaks” here in the States.

    The Handmaid’s Tale was a book that I selected for my bookclub in February 2007. I remember the date only because my daughter came with her one-month old baby, who is now eleven. I haven’t seen the movie, but it’s been on my mind to do that and to re-read the book. Thanks for the reminder!

    My dad is 93 and we found out a couple of years ago that he has celebrated every February 12—the day he got out of the army—with a beer.

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2018

    I've read the book and this is one of those rare cases where I think the filmed version is much better - probably because it's not a 120-minute condensed movie, but a 12-episode series an hour each. That gives enough room to go deep into those seemingly small details and subplots that give flesh to the story. It feels real, this could really happen.

    And of course it has Elisabeth Moss, easily one of the greatest actors alive today.

    The first season is based directly on Margaret Atwood's book. There is also a second season, which was a natural consequence as the book didn't really "end". The second season ties the story a bit closer to current events, making it even more chilling.

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2018

    Oh, there's coverage all right, all the media are plastered wall-to-wall with this. But as you can imagine, it's mostly speculation and very little hard fact is coming out. Twenty or so police investigators are now going through full-top level security clearance, so that they can access all the secret material with no restrictions.

    It's getting really ugly at times. At the extreme right-wing political side - and I'm sure this is no coincidence - the current theory in fashion is that there were female navigators on board. We all know they can't parallel park, right? Our local Breitbart/Bannon variety, Helge Luras at resettdotno, introduced this ingenious theory a couple of days ago, and it was picked up by Harald Lysglimt Johannessen, who has gained notoriety as a Trump evangelist (there's no other word for it) for the last two years. He's now starting his own political party.

    What can I say? This is even more embarrassing and shameful than the crash itself.

    The steel wire story may be a red herring. Yes, they broke, but apparently it was the bolts drilled into the rock, not the wires. Chain wouldn't have helped.

    As I mentioned to Trevor in a PM, I did my 15-month military service as a radio operator on board a similar ship. It's a long time ago, but we did participate in NATO exercises like this one. I've seen this from the inside. Even my old hippie/anti-authoritarian self quite enjoyed it - not for any ideological reasons, but because it was an interesting experience. Even then I was impressed by the professionalism and efficiency. These people are exceptionally well trained.

    Which is why I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I suspect this is a complex chain of events.

    jane-e
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2018

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

    It's getting really ugly at times. At the extreme right-wing political side - and I'm sure this is no coincidence - the current theory in fashion is that there were female navigators on board. We all know they can't parallel park, right? Our local Breitbart/Bannon variety, Helge Luras at resettdotno, introduced this ingenious theory a couple of days ago, and it was picked up by Harald Lysglimt Johannessen, who has gained notoriety as a Trump evangelist (there's no other word for it) for the last two years. He's now starting his own political party.

    What can I say? This is even more embarrassing and shameful than the crash itself.

    What is the general reaction to this part of the story, Dag? Does anyone agree with this nonsense or are people speaking up?

    Disclosure: I am awesome at parallel parking, trained well by my dad when I was 15.

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2018

    Thankfully, Jane, the general reaction is disgust, and most people ask how it's possible to sink so low (oops, no pun intended). I couldn't believe it when I first heard it, I thought it was a sick joke.

    But there is a segment that actively pursues this and it got some traction on facebook. As I said, this can't be coincidental. It all fits into a certain reactionary ideology and it's being used to that end. Pussy-grabbing and all that.

    Of course, nobody knows whether there really were female navigators on duty, on the bridge, that night.

    One of our (male) comedians were on TV the other day: "whenever there's crashing, massive destruction and general mayhem, it's my impression that males are significantly overrepresented"...