beat down uppers?

[Steve Zeeeee]

i dont like harsh upper tones, or even kinda loud uppers.

They are not peaked.  I'd just like upper tones to sound like

they are farther away, yet remain brilliant or clean, not

compressed or muffled.  What is a strategy for this please?

thanks anyone

[Bob_Howes]

It's hard to tell exactly what you want from a text description (and without hearing the audio you're working on).

However, I'd be tempted to experiment with either the Multiband compression dialed in for just a subtle control of the higher frequencies or with EQ--maybe the FFT or 30 band graphic.

The Graphic EQ is likely the easiest to play with--just start knocking a few dB off the higher frequencies and see if that's going the direction you want.

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Steve Zeeeee wrote:

I'd just like upper tones to sound like

they are farther away, yet remain brilliant or clean, not

compressed or muffled.  What is a strategy for this please?

Can't really answer this, because we are short of a load of information. For a start, is this pre-recorded material we are talking about? If it is, you should probably be looking critically at what you are listening to it on first, and if it's loudspeakers, possibly the environment too. It's very easy to start mucking about with the sound of files, but without some knowledge of the environment, etc we would be going nowhere sensible with suggestions.

If it's your own material, then this applies doubly - you really need to check this in several environments (unless you have a known-good system and a knowlege of how similar material sounds on it) before committing to anything at all. But, if this seems to be occuring with most material, then you really should sort out the monitoring environment first, I'd say.

[Steve Zeeeee]

largely this is just a matter of taste.  If I mixed the originals, i would just lower

the tracks with upper registers.  But taking a final output from the web or cd

or anywhere, will EQ or compression put a different flavor on those tones,

cuz everything is now blended? Sure I'll try & see, but sometimes it saves

a lot of time when pros answer.

maybe i'll post samples later, but right now, it's more a techniques question.

[Bob_Howes]

Steve is right that it's impossible to be specific without a lot more info...and also right that changing the tonal balance without good monitoring and acoustics can be risky.

That said, both the EQ and multiband compression I mentioned allow you to adjust high frequencies without changing lower frequencies.

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Steve Zeeeee wrote:

But taking a final output from the web or cd or anywhere, will EQ or compression put a different flavor on those tones, cuz everything is now blended?

Yes of course it will - if it's not your material then it simply won't sound as the creator originally intended it to. And that's the thing really - if you're finding this with other peoples' material then it's a replay thing you should be attending to, and not altering the files. Because when you eventually get around to playing these files on a correctly balanced system, they are almost certainly going to sound dull. That said...

It's not too difficult as a rule to get a file to follow, at least approximately, an EQ slope that looks flat up until about 1k, and then slopes down at a fixed number of dB/octave until you reach the frequency limit, and that's what the majority of balanced-sounding tracks do. Back in the past, the figure used was -6dB/octave, but in more recent times -3dB/octave has been used, and files mastered like this invariably sound 'brighter', with more pronounced HF content. So if you want to try things to the old slope, which will take quite a bit of 'edge' off the sound, but probably won't entirely wreck it, then simply EQ the file so that you get a gradual decrease of -3dB/octave from about 1kHz upwards. That may be all you need to do to turn a -3dB slope to a -6dB one. Personally though, I'd check out the monitoring flatness before I did anything like that at all.

[Steve Zeeeee]

Gotcha

Our sound systems  may not be balanced, but how balanced must they be? 

Even the live concerts have harsh upper tones with raspy snares and cymbals and

other white noise garbage that buries all the other tones. So thats personal taste. 

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Steve Zeeeee wrote:

Our sound systems  may not be balanced, but how balanced must they be? 

If you are talking about most moderately priced home systems, you'll be lucky to get them flat-ish up to 7-8kHz, and all sorts of beaming and absorption effects take place in most rooms above that, even if the speaker itself has a moderately flat response itself up to 14-15kHz. Unless you spend money on treating the room, you'll get bass irregularities caused by room modes. Yes, monitors that can sound fine in one environment can sound like complete crap in another one. This is one reason that I'm very cautious about what I can hear on monitors during location recordings - you are invariably in a room you know nothing about, so you can't make critical judgements using them at all. Generally, headphones are safer.

But if you are even having trouble with live sound, then I'd definitely treat the sound you are experiencing on your system, rather than individual files - apart from anything else, it will save you a lot of time. The way most people do this is to find tracks that are generally accepted as 'good-sounding' and tweak your monitoring system so that they sound okay to you on that.

A lot of people seem to think that they can do sensible listening/monitoring on computer-grade speakers. I've yet to hear a pair that get anywhere close to being acceptable, and often they have a hard sound, which will reproduce a lot of the things you are talking about - just because of their distortion levels. You can get plenty of at least half-way acceptable monitors for reasonable amounts these days, and those often sound a lot cleaner.

So what are you actually listening on?

[Steve Zeeeee]

pioneer model sx-650 35 watts @, speaker load impedance: 4Ω (minimum)

2 JBL model L36 8 ohms

1 formula (bic) F-12 12" sub woofer 160 watts rms continuous 475 peak

max output 115dB SPL 25-200Hz

we've never turned it up past 35%.

[Bob_Howes]

Question:  Have you burned a CD or made a decent bit rate MP3 copy of your stuff then listened to it on a wide range of other gear?

In an ideal world, you'll have perfect monitor speakers and perfect acoustics in your mixing room.  The idea world rarely exists though.  In the non-ideal world, you have to teach yourself what things have to sound like in your studio to also sound acceptable in your car, on your friends' various hifi set ups, on earbuds from your iPad and so on.  It's far from ideal, but burning a test mix, listening critically on lots of systems to note what you don't like, then doing another test to repeat the process--and so on--will eventually give you a fighting chance of getting a good mix in less than idea circumstances.

One other factor to consider is personal taste.  In another forum I frequently debate with recordists (often in the USA) who love the sound of large dynamic mics like an SM7B or RE20--but I find this artifically warm and lacking in detail.  I much prefer the sound I get from a selection of large diaphragm condersers--more crisp and clear to my ear but considered harsh by others.

[ryclark]

According to searches on Google there are level adjustment controls on the L36s for Presence and HF. Maybe you need to find a CD that sounds good on other systems and tweak the crossover controls on your JBLs to sound less harsh..

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Yeah, adjust the level controls certainly - but it won't reduce the actual harshness (aka distortion) very much, just the level of it. You just end up with harshness at a lower level, is all...

The other thing people have done with these speakers is to re-cap the crossovers - apparently this can help too.

[Steve Zeeeee]

SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:

Yeah, adjust the level controls certainly - but it won't reduce the actual harshness (aka distortion) very much, just the level of it. You just end up with harshness at a lower level, is all...

The other thing people have done with these speakers is to re-cap the crossovers - apparently this can help too.

well, the uppers aren't always distorted, just relatively loud.

But what does recap the crossovers mean?  Does that require $?

Thanks

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Over spec'ed (overspecified) simply means that you have a sub-bass system that can cope with way more bass that you are ever going to throw at it!

The JBL speakers have a crossover in them, and it uses a combination of inductors and capacitors to filter the bass out of the mid range, and the midrange and bass out of the tweeter. The controls you have on them determine the output from the midrange and treble parts of it that get fed to the respective drivers. Sometimes, the capacitors in crossovers dry out, and this can introduce distortion, which is reproduced immediately by the speakers themselves. So, some people claim that replacing the capacitors (re-cap) will improve this situation. You have to be careful though to get exactly the correct type and value, otherwise the crossover characteristics will alter, and that will almost certainly not be a good thing at all. Yes it requires some $, but not usually an excessive amount.

[Steve Zeeeee]

so will those capacitors demonstrate failure at any setting, or settings other than zero?

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Any setting - they are operating in the filter all the time. 'Zero' on the settings merely indicates that this is where the manufacturer thinks the controls should be set for a flat response. Personally I'm inclined to think that capacitor failure in crossovers is pretty rare - it's not something I've experienced directly, although I cannot deny that it could happen. I think that you are just as likely, if not more so, to get increased distortion through cone surrounds going rotten - that's a far more common occurence.

[Steve Zeeeee]

well we've already gone thru that.

. I think that you are just as likely, if not more so, to get increased distortion through cone surrounds going rotten - that's a far more common occurence.

[Steve Zeeeee]

Question:  Have you burned a CD or made a decent bit rate MP3 copy of your stuff then listened to it on a wide range of other gear?

In an ideal world, you'll have perfect monitor speakers and perfect acoustics in your mixing room.  The idea world rarely exists though.  In the non-ideal world, you have to teach yourself what things have to sound like in your studio to also sound acceptable in your car, on your friends' various hifi set ups, on earbuds from your iPad and so on.  It's far from ideal, but burning a test mix, listening critically on lots of systems to note what you don't like, then doing another test to repeat the process--and so on--will eventually give you a fighting chance of getting a good mix in less than idea circumstances.

One other factor to consider is personal taste.  In another forum I frequently debate with recordists (often in the USA) who love the sound of large dynamic mics like an SM7B or RE20--but I find this artifically warm and lacking in detail.  I much prefer the sound I get from a selection of large diaphragm condersers--more crisp and clear to my ear but considered harsh by others.

i have found when I get a good track, or a good EQ, etc., it sounds good everywhere, tho maybe not like a perfect studio master.

I'm a photogreapher and this is the same for photos: a good image color file looks good everywhere:  on unbalanced monitors,

on any web site, any service bureau, etc.  So I'm trying to pick up the same skills in Audition.  Thank you guys for helping.

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Steve Zeeeee wrote:

2 JBL model L36 8 ohms

A-ha... these came from the period (70's) when JBL made very 'forward' sounding speakers. A lot of people who used them described the Decade series as 'harsh'... and others loved them - it really was a matter of taste. To me, they certainly didn't sound exactly neutral, whatever you did with them. So there's a good chance that I'd agree with you about the sound you are hearing, especially if you're listening to modern electronics-based productions. These sort of speakers are great for spotting defects in recordings, but long-term exposure is almost bound to be wearing on the ears.

It strikes me that you might be better off with more 'European'-style speakers - these generally don't exhibit these characteristics anything like as much. The rest of what you have is fine, although the sub does seem to be a little on the over-spec'ed side...

Ebay may well be your friend here - often there are bargains to be had.

[Steve Zeeeee]

Thank you all; I love data.

HARSH: I dont like harsh anywhere

including live concerts and since forever, so it's not just old ears.

Harsh to me is when upper tones cover up

the lower tones and I have to conciously pick thru the noise to hear

the good stuff.  Good Stuff ???   BASS  BASS BASS

Why bass (= EDM, Dubstep...)?  Cuz it's pure & primitive and lifts the body

and the modern creators are putting in bass sounds like never before heard.

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

In that case, I'd definitely go for sweeter-sounding speakers for the non-bass part.

[Steve Zeeeee]

SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:

Steve Zeeeee wrote:

2 JBL model L36 8 ohms

A-ha... these came from the period (70's) when JBL made very 'forward' sounding speakers. A lot of people who used them described the Decade series as 'harsh'... and others loved them - it really was a matter of taste. To me, they certainly didn't sound exactly neutral, whatever you did with them. So there's a good chance that I'd agree with you about the sound you are hearing, especially if you're listening to modern electronics-based productions. These sort of speakers are great for spotting defects in recordings, but long-term exposure is almost bound to be wearing on the ears.

It strikes me that you might be better off with more 'European'-style speakers - these generally don't exhibit these characteristics anything like as much. The rest of what you have is fine, although the sub does seem to be a little on the over-spec'ed side...

Ebay may well be your friend here - often there are bargains to be had.

I been EQ the files lower uppers, been turning down treble on the amp, and even turn the JBL speakers AWAY from the room at times.

"over-spec'ed side" means...  ? 

[Steve Zeeeee]

Steve Zeeeee wrote:

pioneer model sx-650 35 watts @, speaker load impedance: 4Ω (minimum)

2 JBL model L36 8 ohms

1 formula (bic) F-12 12" sub woofer 160 watts rms continuous 475 peak

max output 115dB SPL 25-200Hz

we've never turned it up past 35%.

What does this mean in the combo above please?

sx-650: min RMS at 8 ohms, from 20 to 20,000 Hertz, with no more than 0.3% total harmonic distortion