P: Ability to invert negative scans to positives (color and black-and-white)

[jeffk5545]

I would dearly like to see the Lightroom 4 Beta team implement an additional feature in the final release. That feature would be the ability to take a camera+macro lens image of a B&W negative -- essentially a camera-based scan of a negative -- and invert the negative image to a positive image at the beginning of the development process in such a way that the resulting sliders in the LR4 Develop Module would not operate in reverse. As I understand it, this capability exists in Photoshop, but I don't own Photoshop. I do own Photoshop Elements 9, but that program only supports an 8-bit workflow, not 16-bits per channel, and round-tripping between LR & PSE9 requires the reimportation of a TIFF file that is more than twice the size of my NEF RAW files. Since this programming wizardry already exists in Photoshop, I would think that it would be a relatively simple matter to transfer and adapt that code for LR4 -- but then, I'm not a programmer, so what do I know...

I've been digitizing 40-year-old Kodachrome slides from my Peace Corps days in Africa, using a 55mm Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens, coupled to a Nikon ES-1 Slide Copy Attachment, and even on a D300s body, I can get truly excellent results. I can't wait to continue that work using the pending 36 megapixel Nikon D800 body with an upgraded f/2.8 macro lens (mine is the old 55mm f/3.5 design). I really, REALLY want to be able to camera-scan my many B&W negatives without having to generate huge intermediate TIFF files.

You can respond to this request by emailing me, Jeff Kennedy Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to review and consider my request. I LOVE Lightroom 3, and from what I've seen, I'm going to love LR4 even more. I REALLY appreciate the effort that Adobe takes to solicit input from the photographic user community.

BTW, if the feature I request *can't* be implemented right away, could the LR support team provide detailed, interim instructions as to how to use the "backwards" sliders, and in what sequence? That would be very much appreciated. I'm sure many older LR users have considerable analog image collections that they would like to digitize, and doing so in-camera is both 1) of surprisingly high quality, 2) MUCH faster than using flatbed scanners and 3) of much higher quality and resolution than flatbed scan and MUCH cheaper than professional drum scans.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

This thread is being merged into an authoritative thread for better tracking and response. 

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

I'm shocked that no one in this thread has posted the BEST SOLUTION: https://www.negativelabpro.com

It's a plugin to Lightroom that gives you the best way to invert your color negatives (you can't just slide the Tone Curve to the opposite corners, color doesn't work that way!) You can try a trial version, and yes, it's $99, but worth every penny!

[Linwood Ferguson]

*carlos_cardona I own it and like it and it is a good solution, but it is not the "right" solution. Earlier inversion so the lightroom sliders function correctly would be a solution truly integrated with lightroom rather than tacked on.  I like the plugin in that it allows me to keep raw, and not convert to TIFF, but it's still a kludge.   A very nice kludge worth the money; but Adobe should tackle this need.  They really missed the boat while so many people are home, often digitizing.

[Eric Bowles]

Linwood is right.  If it can work as a plugin, why not add it as a Lightroom feature?  I'd like the integrated catalog, the non-destructive RAW editing, the ability to make virtual copies for different edits, etc.  

This is a feature request - a feature that is useful enough that people pay $99 for a third party solution.

[Linwood Ferguson]

Incidentally, I forgot -- Using tools like Negative Lab Pro do not allow Face Recognition (and probably lots of useful tools) to work properly.  Again, not knocking NLP, it's a fundamental issue in Lightroom that needs an improvement.

[drtonyb]

I still fail to understand why the Adobe LrC development team are so reluctant to add this feature after all this time - 9 years Almost as old as Lightroom itself.

The open-source raw software Darktable 3.2.1 now has a module that handles colour negatives, so why is it so difficult for the clever Adobe software engineers?

Here are some screen shots of Darktable and a DSLR 'scanned' film colour negative processed with one click!

Not a bad start.

Functionality like this would be so good to have built into the core of LrC. Living in hope.

[stevel24076854]

Anthony,

Photoshop Elements (Editor) has Filter>Invert to change slides from a negative to a positive and even back again, no matter if its in color or gray~scale.  The Editor has always been the mainstay and Light Room sometimes came along with Photoshop Elements as an add-on.  You guys are wishing upon a star for something that has already been made long ago.  Adobe will not include this inverter in Light Room, it's appropriate for Light Room which is  a basic developer and catalog program. 

Light Room only has light's and dark's but no editing.  You guys are asking about an inverter which is already a filer>Inverter in Elements in the Editor. 

Buy Photoshop Elements and get more bang for your buck and you will have the Inverter for slides and everything else as well.  I will not participate further, and will not further comment, this string is far below my aptitude.  

Steve Lehman, mcse and photography editor.  

[bob frost]

My Nikon D850 has negative inversion built-in. Converts to jpgs in camera.

Bob frost

[drtonyb]

True, but no use for a raw, non-destructive workflow.

[Linwood Ferguson]

If we have LRC we have Photoshop, which is easy to invert also. But it's debayered, not raw.

[Eric Bowles]

@steve_lehman 

Obviously you don't use or like Lightroom.  Most of your comments refer to Lightroom as it existed 6-8 years ago - not the current version of Lightroom Classic.  It's a pretty good editor - far better suited for most people than Photoshop Elements or Photoshop.

Is certainly viable for photographers to choose the editing tools they prefer.  Photoshop is a good editor for some workflows.  Elements can be used for some things, but that's still another piece of software.   

The entire reason for this discussion is for a group of us to propose a reasonable enhancement in a program we use regularly - Lightroom.  

The big advantage of negative processing as a Lightroom enhancement is it fits into existing workflows.  That means it supports non-destructive editing and eliminates duplicate files or making copies in different formats most of the time.  Lightroom also has a very good catalog functions with collections and other tools to support organization.

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

I can think of 2 very GOOD reasons why Adobe doesn't want to add negative conversion. 1-costs developer time that's best used to make the damn program work right (V10, I'm looking at you!) 2- it makes an already huge resource hog (as it's a huge program) even bigger, taking up more and more RAM memory to run effectively (and the bigger they are, the harder they fall).

[Linwood Ferguson]

I can't argue with "make it work right".  But the latter argument, to me, does not feel right -- why would an alternative path through the "develop" steps necessarily be a significant resource hog.  But I think more to the point - EVERY new feature comes with some resource cost, that has been true since DOS and 8 bit machines. Software companies do not survive by being feature stagnant as a way to protect existing hardware, they survive by providing features people love and want, who then when needed add memory, disk, etc.  I now have two 24mpix and one 62mpix cameras, unthinkable 15 years ago.  I also have 256gb SD cards and a PC filled with 1TB SSD's. I don't want the status quo, I want continual functional improvement -- that's what we were promised for our subscription.

[Eric Bowles]

It's a good sign that there is a market need when a plugin is developed that is commercially viable even after 4-5 years at a price of $100.  

I agree - I don't need a resource hog.  But software companies generally support more features in spite of the overhead required. 

This is an update to image processing that is meaningful enough that Nikon built it into their cameras, sells an adapter and lenses to facilitate the process, and still has a scanner that is widely used to scan negatives into a digital format.  

[stevel24076854]

I have Light Room. I own it. I don't subscribe to it. No need for me.  It came FREE with Elements, an add-on. 

[stevel24076854]

I have Light Room. I own it. I don't subscribe to it. No need for me.  It came FREE with Elements, an add-on. 

[Eric Bowles]

So the product you have is not Lightroom Classic 10.0.  That's the current version.

[TheDigitalDog]

@steve_lehman I have Light Room. I own it.

You own a license to use it. Based on the acceptance of the EULA you agreed to. 

[kbarre]

Eric, don’t engage him. He’s a troll. He clearly does nothing but post negative comments around here, complaining about people he has nothing in common with. Most people who disagree can simply say so, and move on. Clearly he can’t, because he’s still responding—years later—with answers about a piece of software no professional uses. And his justification? “It was free.” Glad we have that settled. Maybe he will stop commenting now.  

[stevel24076854]

Kevin -

I am not a troll.  I am a tech support professional for Elements in another log.  I got caught in yours by some kind of magic in our online software.  I am only making comments to yours.  You people told me you had a subscription to your program.  I do not.  Neither do I think I'm special.  I am only making a comments.  I don't pay money for mine and its is a full EULA.  I said I can do the same in my Elements that you are seeking and I suggested you buy Elements.  My boss has smiled at me for that suggestion.  Now stop calling me as troll.  My name is Steve.  I have a name.  And . . .  I will stop commenting because all of you are taking my good suggestions personally.  Later gator.  

[stevel24076854]

Don't be confused with my technical credentials.  My MCSE is Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer.  I was a network engineer on the mainframe at Microsoft for 11 years.  At Microsoft I am retired.  Here, I'm with Adobe products as a tech support professional who works on anything but Light Room because Light Room only does a few things.  Light's and dark's and a catalog like in Elements.  I don't do catalogs but I do help with Element's editor technically.  That's why we help in Adobe Photoshop forums.  I was also on-loan to Adobe as a test engineer in 1992 when they began development on their first Photoshop so I know them well.  Light Room was made several years after and I never worked on it.  I might give technical suggestions but I am NOT a troll.  I have noticed that all of you argue among yourselves.  Maybe you are used to that, but I don't want to be involved with your arguments, okay?  I am not a troll.  Let's keep it that way.  See ya.  

[Ladev]

There is an easy way to turn a negative to a positive using Tone Curves and you can turn this into a PRESET. So the thing is you drag the lightest point from the top right corner straight down (that makes everything Black don't worry) then you drag the darkest point from the bottom left straight up and voila you have a positive of your negative. Save it as a preset by only selecting Tone Curve and set it upon importing to apply to all the negatives or just use it after import and sync. 

[bob frost]

"True, but no use for a raw, non-destructive workflow."

But the quality of the Kodak negative films I've inverted either with my D850 or using LR is so poor that its not worth doing any serious editing on them. Converting to jpgs is about all they are worth - holiday snaps!!

Bob Frost

[Linwood Ferguson]

Yes but: it breaks all the sliders for adjustments (they work either backwards or just wacky), plus it breaks face recognition (and maybe guided upright and other tools that require image analysis). 

[Eric Bowles]

With old photos and old negatives, face recognition can be very helpful.  It ha limits and doesn't work all the time - but when it does it is useful.

The slider issue is why the plug-in and a Lightroom enhancement is so useful.