Hardware calibrated monitor

[Giovanni Stoto]

I have a BenQ SW270c which is a hardware calibrated monitor: this means the calibration software (Master Palette Element or MPE) is not running in background in Windows 11: it is just used to create the calibration profile to be stored in the monitor  itself.

If I set 3: Native (or 1: aRGB) my photos in Lightroom (and in any other color managed software: Photoshop, Chrome, Microsoft Photo, Fast Raw Viewer) look correct WHILE all Windows GUI elements (i.e. icons), the photos' thumbnails in file explorer, Office etc (that is all non color managed software) look overly contrasted.

If I set 2: sRGB the non color managed software look good BUT my photos in Lightroom look flat, with strange colors.

Am I doing something wrong?

[TheDigitalDog]

Everything in Lightroom should look fine.

Are you making V4 spec display profiles? Try V2 instead. 

[Giovanni Stoto]

I think I'm using V4... Interesting... Will try with V2.

By the way, I have noticed that MPE creates, regardless on the monitor calibration setting, a generic sw270c.icc profile loaded into Windows setting, that I cannot even change as it's the only option: I guess this is a flat profile allowing windows to send out to the monitor a flat signal then converted according to the profile option chosen on the monitor.

[Bob_Hallam]

If your assuming that non-color managed sections of your OS should look better, or different, I'd say that's not something to worry about.  If their not color managed, don't list them in your problem statement.  Color management works in color managed areas.  

[Giovanni Stoto]

Yes correct yet... I use the same PC for editing and for work, and when using Office my eyes really suffer with those very contrasty colors 🫣😬😆

[Bob_Hallam]

Lol! Yes I guess that would cause me some issue too.  Hopefully V2 will work.  Otherwise you can download a trial version of ColorThink Pro   Then use the Medic section and see of your software is providing good profiles or not.  You may need to reinstall your software or update it.  

[D Fosse]

This is simpler than you think.

You can run your monitor in native gamut, or in sRGB emulation. In both cases you need a profile that describes that behavior, and that profile needs to be set in Windows. Whenever the monitor's characteristics change, you need to switch to the corresponding profile.

At all times, the profile needs to be an accurate description of the monitor's actual and current behavior. The monitor profile is a map, and it has to correspond to the actual terrain.

When using non-color managed software, you can set the monitor to sRGB emulation (or, if for non-critical use, just accept the oversaturation). In that case the profile doesn't matter, the application will ignore it in any case.

In all color managed applications, set the monitor to native. Then you need to switch to that profile - but here's what's been tripping you up: you also need to relaunch the application (like Lightroom). All color managed applications load the monitor profile at application startup, and that profile will be used for the duration of that session, until next relaunch.

So when you switch profile, you need to relaunch the application to pick up the new profile.

[Bob_Hallam]

hardware calibrated monitor make their own profiles

[D Fosse]

No, they don't. They make their own calibration, not the same thing. The profile is still based on external measurement.

As far as the profile is concerned, there is no functional difference between a "hardware calibrated" monitor and a "traditional" one (where the calibration is done in the video card). The profile doesn't know and doesn't care. The profile is just a description of how the monitor actually behaves, irrespective of how that behavior is produced.

The profile doesn't do anything. It's just a map.

What has blurred the distinction for many, is that in hardware calibrated units, the calibration can work over a broader range of parameters, such as directly change the position of the primaries and thus gamut. You can't do that in the video card. But that's still calibration (changing monitor behavior), not monitor profile (mapping and describing that behavior).

Getting back to the OP, there are two issues:

• he's not using the correct profile for the monitor's actual behavior, and/or
• he hasn't relaunched the application so that it can load the new and correct profile

That will fix his problem.

[TheDigitalDog]

No, they don't. They make their own calibration, not the same thing. The profile is still based on external measurement.

As far as the profile is concerned, there is no functional difference between a "hardware calibrated" monitor and a "traditional" one (where the calibration is done in the video card). The profile doesn't know and doesn't care. The profile is just a description of how the monitor actually behaves, irrespective of how that behavior is produced.

By @D Fosse

Indeed, like all device profiles.

[Bob_Hallam]

Indeed, like all device profiles.

[Giovanni Stoto]

What is the purpose of having a hw calibrated monitor with easy buttons to change from native to sRGB if then I have to create (how?) corresponding ICC profiles to be swapped manually in Windows every time I move from one calibration to another on the monitor?

When I was using my old monitor, I was using the a calibration SW that was always running in background: I would calibrate for native and sRGB, it would create two ICC profiles and the SW running in background would allow me to choose which ICC profile to use.

A hw calibrated monitor works differently: there are no more as many ICC profiles created for Windows as the calibrations stored in the monitor, and the calibration SW is not running in background. You can create one or max three calibrations in the monitor but on Windows the SW creates only one ICC profile named benqsw270c.icc loaded into Windows. Full stop. You cannot even change it as it's the only option. And since I change calibration modes from the monitor, and the calibration SW is not running in background, there is no way for the monitor to tell windows to change to another ICC profile, also because (let me repeat) there is one and only one ICC profile created by the calibration SW.

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

I don't know the BenQ software, but this sounds strange. It has to be able to switch calibration target and load the corresponding profile in Windows. That's a core function.

In Eizo Colornavigator you can do it in the main software interface - but there is also a separate component that loads in the Windows system tray, where you do that.

Look for something similar in the BenQ software. I've also used NEC Spectraview II, where (IIRC) there was a standalone utility packaged with the software, that did the same thing and worked the same way.

Note that you still have to relaunch color managed applications to load the new profile. This is how all color managed software works, that's nothing special for Adobe applications.

[Giovanni Stoto]

This does not apply to benQ. There is no running sw in background. No icon in system Tray. No ICC profile file for each calibration: only one generic ICC for all calibrations.

But my questions to you now are:

- if you choose Native 6200K, do you see icons and thumbnails in Windows with too much contrast?

- if you choose sRGB 6200K do you now see icons/thumbnails correctly? What about your picture in LR? does it change significatively?

[D Fosse]

Windows Explorer and the Windows desktop are oversaturated in native/wide gamut mode. Any application that doesn't support color management, will appear oversaturated on a wide gamut monitor in native mode - non-color managed applications assume a standard gamut ("sRGB") monitor by convention. If I switch to sRGB emulation, the unit is effectively "dumbed down" to become a standard gamut monitor, and those applications display normally.

Color managed applications display correctly whatever the monitor is set to, whatever the monitor gamut is. There is no visual difference, except that it may be clipped to the sRGB gamut and so clip the most saturated colors.

This works because the software a) changes the monitor characteristics, and b) sets the corresponding monitor profile at system level, where the application gets it at startup. Again, the only thing you need to do is relaunch the application so that it can load the correct profile.

The traditional dichotomy between "standard" and "wide gamut" monitors is artificial and mainly for marketing reasons. As long as you have a color managed environment, the monitor could be anything between or beyond those two and it would work just as well. The monitor profile just describes the monitor as it is.

This does not apply to benQ. There is no running sw in background. No icon in system Tray. No ICC profile file for each calibration: only one generic ICC for all calibrations.

I must say this sounds really surprising, and is very close to rendering the software useless. Read the manual again. If it isn't running, what if you just launch it? Can you switch then?

Most native applications in Windows are color managed, such as Edge and Photos - but with the notable exception of Windows Explorer/desktop. You can use that fact as a quick visual confirmation of which calibration target/profile is currently loaded. (Office isn't color managed either, but you really don't need it there).

[Giovanni Stoto]

This works because the software a) changes the monitor characteristics, and b) sets the corresponding monitor profile at system level, where the application gets it at startup. Again, the only thing you need to do is relaunch the application so that it can load the correct profile.

 All clear, all things I already know and I agree till point a), about point b) as I wrote 8see next) this is not how BenQ works.

I must say this sounds really surprising, and is very close to rendering the software useless. Read the manual again. If it isn't running, what if you just launch it? Can you switch then?

Dunno what to say, but this is how it works:

- you launch the BenQ sw

- you create min one max three calibrations that are stored into the monitor

- regardless of how many calibration you set up, it creates a sw270D6500.icc profile file (D6500 if yiu use 6500K, otherwise name may change) stored in the proper folder and loads this file into the monitor's settings (if you have two monitor, it loads the icc file only for the BenQ monitor)

- you close the BEnQ sw that will not be running in background, no icon in tray, nothing

- when you change the monitor calibration (from the monitor's button) the icc profile in windows is not changed automatically because there is no sw doing this, and even if I want to do this manually, I cannot because I see only the sw270cD6500.icc created above. 

I am trying to contact BenQ support to shed some light.

If I run BenQ sw I can only calibrate the monitor.

But again, in the end I may not really care, during the day for nomal work I set monitor to sRGB and when I use Lr I set it to native, in this latter case I don't care about over saturation of Windows GUI elements. What botehrs me is the following scenario: monitor set in sRGB, I am working with PwoerPoint, a friend asks me to send him a picture in JPG, I open Fast Raw Viewer (which is color managed), I browse my exported JPGs folder and all the pictures in Fast Raw Viewer look flat, dumb, toned down. I need to set monitor to native and then switch back to sRGB.

[Giovanni Stoto]

Here's what BenQ support says

BenQ only puts one ICC profile in the driver which can be downloaded from BenQ's official website, and is fine-tuned for the color space of the native panel. The ICC profile (.icm file) will be applied in Windows on your PC: after that, the color space of the native panel will be identified by your desktop or notebook.

[D Fosse]

OK, come back if you figure this out. I still can't believe that this is the intended behavior.

It should be said that the BenQ software has a long history of buggy and unpredictable behavior, and it's been identified as problematic in many situations here previously. But I had the impression that most problems were fixed by now.

If you're not getting any further, I'd recommend just keeping it in native mode, and use Lightroom/Photoshop/Windows Photos as reference for correct appearance.

EDIT didn't see your last post. I think this sounds like the canned/generic profile supplied with the monitor out of the box. I don't read this as applying to the calibration software.

[Giovanni Stoto]

Just to add some rationale why I am trying to figure this out.

Let's forget about the non calibrated GUI elements...

I have monitor set to NATIVE.

I edit a picture in LR where I use prophotoRGB.
Before exporting into JPG with embedded sRGB profile, I would like to make sure that on a normal monitor of a normal person (you know what I eman here) the photo will still look sort of ok.

One option is to soft proof in LR: I enter soft proof mode, on the elft I keep my edited photo, on the elft the same photo where I apply a generic sRGB profile etc. Although most of the times I can tell tehre is some dfference, very ofetn they are not so significative (especially when photo has to be publisehd online).

Another quicker option is to switch the monitor from NATIVE to sRGB: in this case the difference I see is a lot. If I keep LR open and I switch monitor from NATIVE to sRGB back and forth, in sRGB calibration the photo look dumb, flat, muted down and with wrong colors sometimes. I will send here pics once at home.

[D Fosse]

That's what I said.

In the latter case Lightroom will be using the wrong monitor profile, and then it can't display correctly. It will still be converting into a wide gamut profile, and those numbers sent to screen - but the monitor doesn't have wide gamut characteristics any more. The mapping is wrong.

Lightroom just uses the monitor profile it gets from the operating system when it starts up. This is a standard profile conversion from the document profile into the monitor profile. Those converted/remapped/recalculated numbers are sent to screen.

A profile is a description of a color space. If the profile doesn't describe its color space correctly, the conversion produces wrong results. The calculation produces the wrong numbers.

As for proofing to sRGB, that can be useful for a direct visual check on what colors will be clipped in sRGB. But don't expect any dramatic differences. In most "normal" photographs you won't see much difference, in some cases none at all.

There is absolutely no reason to set the whole monitor to sRGB for that. Soft proofing tells you all you need to know.

The difference you do see, is the gamut difference between sRGB and the monitor's native gamut. If you start out with ProPhoto, that's a much bigger color space again, and you may already have massive clipping and all you ever see on screen is the result of that clipping. Everything you see on screen is already soft-proofed to somewhere near Adobe RGB. You would only see the full actual clipping in the histogram.

If you really want to keep checks on clipping, the histogram is a somewhat underrated and highly efficient tool. Anything that hits 0 or 255 in either channel is gamut clipping.

[Giovanni Stoto]

D. I know, I perfectly understand why this happens but again, sorry if I repeat, changing calibration on monitor does not change icc profile in windows and as you hve read this is how BenQ intended. I am now in contact with BenQ support: they asked me for calibration reports. Will keep you updated.

[D Fosse]

Yes, that's precisely the problem.

Just wanted to make sure all the basics were covered and there were no misunderstandings 😉

[Giovanni Stoto]

Anyhow, this is what BenQ writes

The main difference between hardware and software calibration comes at the next step of the calibration process. Once the necessary adjustments for each reference value have been calculated, they need to be stored somewhere to adjust every color that the monitor displays. A LUT (Lookup table) is used to calculate corrections; inside the LUT, each RGB combination has a new value assigned that reflects the values specific for a monitor to display accurate colors.

When using software color calibration, the LUT is stored on your computer where the color corrections are software-processed first, and the corrected RGB values are then sent to the monitor. A hardware LUT, which is used for hardware calibration, is stored on a dedicated chip inside the display. With a hardware LUT, the monitor receives the unadjusted RGB signal from the computer and then applies the color corrections using a chip on the display itself where the corrected values are stored.

A software calibration LUT needs to be reloaded every time you reboot your computer and only works with that computer's video signal. If you use multiple sources with your monitor, each one must have its color calibration stored independently. A hardware calibrated monitor will be color accurate regardless of which source or computer you connect to it.

This is why tehre is only ione icc profile in windows and tehre is no need to change it when changing monitor's calibration.

[Giovanni Stoto]

https://www.benq.eu/en-uk/knowledge-center/knowledge/hardware-vs-software-calibration.html

[TheDigitalDog]

D. I know, I perfectly understand why this happens but again, sorry if I repeat, changing calibration on monitor does not change icc profile in windows and as you hve read this is how BenQ intended. I am now in contact with BenQ support: they asked me for calibration reports. Will keep you updated.

By @Giovanni Stoto

D. I know, I perfectly understand why this happens but again, sorry if I repeat, changing calibration on monitor does not change icc profile in windows and as you hve read this is how BenQ intended. 

By @Giovanni Stoto

If that's their intent, they are clueless about color management and their competitors (Eizo/NEC) who have the correct intent. Switch calibration and the associated display profile must be switched as well.