Hardware calibrated monitor

[Giovanni Stoto]

I have a BenQ SW270c which is a hardware calibrated monitor: this means the calibration software (Master Palette Element or MPE) is not running in background in Windows 11: it is just used to create the calibration profile to be stored in the monitor  itself.

If I set 3: Native (or 1: aRGB) my photos in Lightroom (and in any other color managed software: Photoshop, Chrome, Microsoft Photo, Fast Raw Viewer) look correct WHILE all Windows GUI elements (i.e. icons), the photos' thumbnails in file explorer, Office etc (that is all non color managed software) look overly contrasted.

If I set 2: sRGB the non color managed software look good BUT my photos in Lightroom look flat, with strange colors.

Am I doing something wrong?

[Giovanni Stoto]

Sorry I copy/pasted the wrong etxt

This is what BenQ writes

The main difference between hardware and software calibration comes at the next step of the calibration process. Once the necessary adjustments for each reference value have been calculated, they need to be stored somewhere to adjust every color that the monitor displays. A LUT (Lookup table) is used to calculate corrections; inside the LUT, each RGB combination has a new value assigned that reflects the values specific for a monitor to display accurate colors.

When using software color calibration, the LUT is stored on your computer where the color corrections are software-processed first, and the corrected RGB values are then sent to the monitor. A hardware LUT, which is used for hardware calibration, is stored on a dedicated chip inside the display. With a hardware LUT, the monitor receives the unadjusted RGB signal from the computer and then applies the color corrections using a chip on the display itself where the corrected values are stored.

A software calibration LUT needs to be reloaded every time you reboot your computer and only works with that computer's video signal. If you use multiple sources with your monitor, each one must have its color calibration stored independently. A hardware calibrated monitor will be color accurate regardless of which source or computer you connect to it.

This is why tehre is only ione icc profile in windows and tehre is no need to change it when changing monitor's calibration.

[Giovanni Stoto]

The key part is:

With a hardware LUT, the monitor receives the unadjusted RGB signal from the computer and then applies the color corrections using a chip on the display itself where the corrected values are stored.

[TheDigitalDog]

The key part is:

With a hardware LUT, the monitor receives the unadjusted RGB signal from the computer and then applies the color corrections using a chip on the display itself where the corrected values are stored.

By @Giovanni Stoto

And ICC aware products still need a description of the current conditions: the display profile.

[Giovanni Stoto]

We are going in circle.

You are right but the BenQ approach is not to have an ICC profile for each monitor calibration, since there is not running calibration sw on the pc, their approach is to have one single neutral ICC profile always loaded in Windows, regardless of the monitor's calibration. The purpose fo this neautral ICC profile is to send an unadjusted RGB signal from the computer to the minitor, it's the monitor then that applies the color corrections using a chip on the display itself where the corrected values are stored.

[TheDigitalDog]

We are not going around in circles. Your product is broken. Hopefully, we agree to the why; the display profile. 

[Giovanni Stoto]

Are you saying that a well known monitor maker brand sells a product working in the wrong way?

[TheDigitalDog]

Are you saying that a well known monitor maker brand sells a product working in the wrong way?

By @Giovanni Stoto

As you describe it: yes!

Let me remind you who came here for help and who here was using such display systems dating to the late 90s and actually did work for companies like Sony (Artisan) and NEC (Spectaview). 

[Giovanni Stoto]

Let me remind you ... who here was using such display systems dating to the late 90s and actually did work for companies like Sony (Artisan) and NEC (Spectaview). 

By @TheDigitalDog

I don't get this part...

[TheDigitalDog]

Let me remind you ... who here was using such display systems dating to the late 90s and actually did work for companies like Sony (Artisan) and NEC (Spectaview). 

By @TheDigitalDog

I don't get this part...

By @Giovanni Stoto

“The only source of knowledge is experience”. Albert Einstein

[D Fosse]

No contradiction to what I said above: this is the calibration, not the monitor profile.

The calibration isn't the problem here; the profile is.

Sometimes I get the impression that all the problems we've seen with the BenQ software, is that they themselves don't understand this very basic distinction between calibration and profile. They don't seem to understand what the profile does. The quote above does nothing to rectify that impression.

Or maybe they intend this monitor to be used for video. In the video world, icc color management isnt used. There is no monitor profile. Instead, they calibrate the monitor to a standard such as Rec.709 or Rec.2020 (or as close as it can get), and that's that. Then all source material needs to conform to that.

[Giovanni Stoto]

To my understanding BenQ does calibration + monitor profile inside the monitor itself: whe you calibrate for a color space it generates inside the monitor both the monitor calibration and the related monitor profile. Since Windiows still need an icc profile, a generif neutral ICC file is generated on the pc and loaded into Windows.

[TheDigitalDog]

To my understanding BenQ does calibration + monitor profile inside the monitor itself: whe you calibrate for a color space it generates inside the monitor both the monitor calibration and the related monitor profile. 

By @Giovanni Stoto

There is no profile “inside the monitor”. That's the problem and misunderstanding. This was mentioned and spot on:

“The calibration isn't the problem here; the profile is.”

[Giovanni Stoto]

This video should sort of answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgo2p7jF3n0

This means that yes there could be more than one ICC profiles for each calibration mode but only if calibration modes have different gamut. And if you need to, you have to do it manually: kinda stupid!!! This is wrtitten nowhere in the user manual. 

[TheDigitalDog]

This means that yes there could be more than one ICC profiles for each calibration mode but only if calibration modes have different gamut. And if you need to, you have to do it manually: kinda stupid!!! 

By @Giovanni Stoto

Worth repeating: 
If that's their intent, they are clueless about color management and their competitors (Eizo/NEC) who have the correct intent. Switch calibration and the associated display profile must be switched as well. 

[Giovanni Stoto]

I was not saying you were not right, I was just saying that my understanding of how BenQ calibration works was different because not well documented.

Now, after looking at the video, I will check at home if indeed I have more than one ICC profile or not. I have to admit it's stupid to have the user do this manually when a simple app in the icon tray would have been more user friendly.

There is only one thing that is not clear to me: the guy explicitly says that there is an exception to the need to change manually the ICC profile in Windows, but it's not clear to me which exception this is.

[TheDigitalDog]

Now, after looking at the video, I will check at home if indeed I have more than one ICC profile or not. I have to admit it's stupid to have the user do this manually when a simple app in the icon tray would have been more user friendly.

By @Giovanni Stoto

And that's precisely what the Eizo or SpectraView would do, automatically and on the fly. 

If BenQ doesn't, you will have to! But here's your issue; your calibration and profile are mismatching. It is why applications like Lightroom Classic are previewing incorrectly. If what you tell us is true, your product isn't doing what the others correctly do, then YES: I am saying that a well-known monitor maker brand sells a product working in the wrong way. 

[Giovanni Stoto]

Well thing is that on my PC I cannot find more than one ICC profile, reason why I cannot change manually the profile when changing monitor calibration, so I supposed it was not necessary since nowhere in the BenQ documentation this is written.

Why do I have only one ICC profile? Dunno... BenQ support told me I should have three, one for each calibration I did 

[TheDigitalDog]

Well thing is that on my PC I cannot find more than one ICC profile, reason why I cannot change manually the profile when changing monitor calibration, so I supposed it was not necessary since nowhere in the BenQ documentation this is written.

Why do I have only one ICC profile? Dunno... BenQ support told me I should have three, one for each calibration I did 

By @Giovanni Stoto

I'm on a Mac. 

I'm using a SpectraView. 

You'll have to ask BenQ why what appears to be a stupid design is stupid (or a misunderstanding) or a bug. 

But you now know why your previews are wrong. 

[Giovanni Stoto]

I already knew why my previews are wrong when monitor is in Native, I did not know why my pictures in LR are wrong when monitor is on sRGB.

It seems I should have two ICC files on my PC and I'll need to change them manually, but I find only one ICC .

Will try to calibrate again...

[TheDigitalDog]

I already knew why my previews are wrong when monitor is in Native, I did not know why my pictures in LR are wrong when monitor is on sRGB.

It seems I should have two ICC files on my PC and I'll need to change them manually, but I find only one ICC .

Will try to calibrate again...

By @Giovanni Stoto

ALL your previews are wrong on all ICC-aware applications IF the calibration and profile don't match (the profile doesn't define the calibration). 

Without proper color management, sRGB is a meaningless concept. 

[Giovanni Stoto]

Well, guess what? Indeed I found in  Windows/System32/Spools/Driver/Color all three ICM files created by PME.

I was being deceived by the fact that in monitor's properties, under the cor profile drop-down list, I would see only one option: the profile generated during last calibration, that is native. So based on what I read on BenQ 's website I guessed that was normal. Nowhere was written what I was supposed to do: go into advanced monitor settings, add the three color profiles by selecting the three ICM files and set the one I wanted to use. And the last part (set the color profile to be used, to match the monitor calibration) has to be done manually each time I change the monitor calibration. And this is stupid, and I don't know why BenQ does not have a dedicated app in system tray to do what Eizo does: change the color profile in Windows and the calibration on the monitor. Who cares if you can easily change the monitor calibration with a press of a button if then you still to go into monitor's advanced settings to change the color profile. Luckily I found a small app named Display Profile that allows you to choose the correct color profile.

And the funny thing is that BenQ does not suggest to do this! They say: calibrate monitor in native, load the generated ICM color profile in Windows and if you want to verify how your edited photo looks on 99% of monitor's (non calibrated sRGB) just use the LR color proofing (living with the super saturated colors of non color managed SW). Now LR color proofing is annoying, as you still need to select in LR the color profile of your output: the printer's specific in case of printing or a generic sRGB in case of web publishing. So clicking on the puck to choose sRGB calibration would be faster, but I've just learned this is not enough, I also need to set in Windows the correct color profile. How stupid...

I have to thank you a lot for this conversation and apologize if I e given the wrong impression , but simply I could not match what I used to do with my former non-hw calibrated monitor (use the calibration SW icon in system tray to change profile) with my actual experience and with what you were trying to explain. And since I'm a SW engineer I needed all the pieces to fall in place in a coherent way to get to the correct procedure.

[TheDigitalDog]

And the funny thing is that BenQ does not suggest to do this! They say: calibrate monitor in native, load the generated ICM color profile in Windows and if you want to verify how your edited photo looks on 99% of monitor's (non calibrated sRGB) just use the LR color proofing (living with the super saturated colors of non color managed SW).

By @Giovanni Stoto

IF they are saying this, then they are wrong about that too! 

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:
When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices
How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check
The downsides of an all sRGB workflow sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices
The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology
Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output
High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4
Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

[Giovanni Stoto]

So why has LR implemented the color proofing feature?

Do you mean that LR color proofing is only to be done for printing?

What am I supposed to do, once I edited a pic with monitor in native and matching ICM color profile in windows (case 1 below) to verify how the picture looks on the web for most of users?

In any case, out of curiosity, this is how now it all looks on my PC:

1. When editing in LR

2. Not to be used, wrong 

3. Not to be used, wrong 

4. When working (mainly to avoid bad looking colors in power point)

[TheDigitalDog]

So why has LR implemented the color proofing feature?

Do you mean that LR color proofing is only to be done for printing?

What am I supposed to do, once I edited a pic with monitor in native and matching ICM color profile

By @Giovanni Stoto

Like Photoshop, it can be used for any soft proofing. 

The previews in Develop (where you soft-proof) are unique to all other modules.  The color space used is a hybrid of ProPhoto RGB. When color management works as it should (unlike what you were using), one can soft proof to a printer profile or another RGB Working Space if desired. 

Native (Windows Native) is meaningless! 

Windows and displays do not necessarily produce anything like sRGB.

sRGB has a specific recipe (for one, it uses a really dim 85 cd/m2 target). View the video. Without color management, sRGB is meaningless! 

For a color managed preview, one needs a calibrated AND profiled display and a color space for all images to be defined to produce a preview. 

Do you really want to get into the weeds? Which sRGB? There happens to really be only one. And color management fully implemented must be used as we've described here. 

https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/srgb-profile-comparison.html

[Giovanni Stoto]

I am going to read tomorrow (it's half past midnight here 🫣) but I still don't understand one thing.

Say I'm in the correct case 1 I posted above: my monitor is set to a calibration mode in native colorspace, the related ICM color profile (generated by the calibration SW) is loaded into Windows, the Windows GUI look terrible, I know why, but I don't care, I open a raw in LR and do my editing, before exporting into a JPG I would like to see how the edited picture will look like on a standard sRGB monitor. What do I do?