Why We're Not Signing Up To Adobe Creative Cloud.

[chrisgavin2]

I've spent quite a lot of time looking at the implications of the new 'Creative Cloud' deal for our company. I have decided that for us, it's a very BAD deal indeed...

1: As a UK company the list price for Creative Cloud %152 the US price. CC for teams here works out at $102/user/month. The exact same software and online solution for half as much again as US users are being asked for. We can't see any justification for this market segmentation. Adobe software has always cost a lot more to worldwide users outside the US marketplace, but with a 'cloud-based' product delivered entirely online (under the new CC regime) how on Earth, can these price differences continue to be justified?

2: Creative Cloud for teams is being charged at a considerably higher rate than for individuals. Buying numerous seats and being a loyal customer will actually cost a lot more than the per-seat price for individual users. The 'Teams' offer does include increased cloud storage, but we just don't need this, and don't expect to be charged more per seat for the priviledge of being a multi-user customer.

3: Subscription at the advertised rates is not only too  expensive, it just doesn't suit us at all. As many have said before, we upgrade our software when we can afford it. Our business is sporadic, so we prefer to be in control of our spending. The subsciption model represents a constant drain on our resources. If Adobe want to offer a subscription model, then that's fine for those that might want it, but the option to buy software shouldn't be withdrawn from the customers who prefer to purchase their software outright.

4: Creative Cloud includes a lot of things we don't need. We don't actually need to be paying Adobe for cloud storage of our projects. We didn't ask for 100GB of cloud storage per team user, and we certainly shouldn't be paying for it out of our software spend.

5: Monopolistic Behaviour. With customers on a monthly subscription, Adobe can and  will introduce features and increase prices at a pace to suit themselves. As customers, we lose control of how much software we buy and how often. The subscription model of tied-in customers is just bad for us and cetainly bad for innovation and competition in the marketplace.

I encourage users to make their opinions known to Adobe about the new scheme and I sincerely hope that Adobe will give serious consideration to the legitimate concerns of their user-base.

I look forward to the retraction of the 'cloud only' decision soon.

Chris.

[Dragonspear]

I thought this thread had some great discussion points. Andy Bay probably captured two of my favorite points as well. At any rate I think the main point out of all this is the following:

Customers like having a choice. When you've always given them a choice between sticking with their old horse, or getting a new one, many long-time customers don't like the fact that now you're no longer selling horses. You're renting them; making sure you leave your customer forever indebted to you. Seems like you're changing your target audience.

My current horse is paid for, and works just fine, thank you. ...and besides, there are a lot of other good horses out there for a lot less.

[Butch_M]

RM Brand wrote:

And then there are people like myself who would otherwise never afford $700 outright to get a business going.

That is an entirely empty argument. If you could not afford a perpetual license in the past ... did you really need the software to begin with? If you did not have the means or the self discipline to save up the initial cost of a perpetual license are you sure you will have the means or the desire to pay for a subscription in perpetuity? Sure, $20-$50 per month does sound affordable on the surface ... but if you couldn't set aside that amount to save up for a purchase prior to CC ... I find it difficult to accept you will continue to have the ability to maintain paying monthly for an indefinite time frame.

[chrisgavin2]

RM Brand,

You're absolutely right  'There's no one perfect solution for everyone', and you have judged that CC is a good deal for your circumstances.

Since Creative Cloud was first introduced, customers could choose which system (let's call them 'rental' or 'ownership') suited them best.

But now, Adobe have announce that only 'rental' is available and the possibility of  'ownership' is to be scrapped.

To me that seems like we've lost an option we had before, The loss of this flexibility is not something I'm happy about. I actually think that by keeping both options available Adobe could appeal to the greatest customer-base and perhaps even sell more software.

[Greg_Bohn]

> And then there are people like myself who would otherwise never afford $700 outright

> So when I saw my bill go down and learned of Adobe's new publishing approach, I was ecstatic.

  The fact remains that in the long term you are most likely paying more for less choice and freedom.You might be O.k. with paying over and over for "all the latest updates" on everything (at least for now), but many aren't going to be so pleased.

  Some (who already wanted the full line) are going to be happier (at least in the short term) than people who only wanted to pay for only one or a few of the programs.

> And  the best part of all, they make it affordable in the short-term to  those of us still learning and

> climbing the creative ladder.

  And like in the real world, there were people for whom renting was a plan until they reached the point where they could afford their own home. It wasn't normally the end goal though, just a stepping stone along the way. In most cases it's actually the wrong thing to do if done for longer than necessary.

  Before, both choices were available. Now, it's rent only, and mandatory upgrading (at least the cost part).

> The concerns expressed have to do with value for your money.

  And I usually pay close attention to the value I'm receiving for what I spend my money on. I would still balk at paying $45.00 a month for toothpaste despite the fact that I could afford it...

[Randall B Miller]

I don't understand comparing $45 monthly toothpaste bills (clean teeth!) to

the complete adobe suite?

Having the complete thing for next to nothing lets me learn more skills,

and offer my clients more services, and I get way more money (dwarfing the

monthly fee into nothingness) (it's already happening for me with Muse)

(I'm going to try the video stuff next).

I'm having a blast with all this new opportunity. And CC is making it

possible (for me and a handful of others maybe)

[Greg_Bohn]

rmdtulsa wrote:

I don't understand comparing $45 monthly toothpaste bills (clean teeth!) to

the complete adobe suite?

Having the complete thing for next to nothing lets me learn more skills,

and offer my clients more services, and I get way more money (dwarfing the

monthly fee into nothingness) (it's already happening for me with Muse)

(I'm going to try the video stuff next).

I'm having a blast with all this new opportunity. And CC is making it

possible (for me and a handful of others maybe)

I took your statement "The concerns expressed have to do with value for your money." to mean you weren't concerned with the value you were getting for your money... Perhaps I misunderstood, but you do seem to be unconcerned about the long term value you are getting for your money.

  All your statements about things being so wonderful today could also have been obtained without having to subjugate yourself to a rental only model...

[Randall B Miller]

Not in my opinion. Not with the way I am with money. I sure would survive

the old way, I'm just so much more pleased this way. Anyway! Don't mean to

be so disagreeable. Adobe software is like Christmas to me with every

release (hard for me to sleep the night before new releases, etc. sad but

true).

I'm just trying to understand the opposite unhappiness in others with Adobe

(and yet still use it)

(I clearly don't understand this, except for the fact that all humans look

at money very differently.)

[Guest]

for those who can access the cloud software it can offer great value however... in some places the cloud is not even available and in others where internet is not good the cloud now makes adobes products completely unreachable..  this is exclusionary and discriminating.

The pricing disparity around the world is cause for great concern... a product delivered in the same fashion in all markets with lower operating costs should not be so vastly different.. 50% more... this demonstrates that adobe will hike the price when it feels it can.. and as a monopoly this is veru dangerous

for many the cloud is a wonderful product but for me and many others ownership suites our business model better... to have that yanked away from us is not cool....  offering both like last year gave us a choice ...thats all we want

[Jeff_Know1]

However, by making the products accessible via a subscription, Adobe opens door to more clients like myself. And considering that only a few could afford the suite

12 million licenses say otherwise.

They may lose some customers who insist that they'd rather pay a lump sum, but the advantages of making the programs available via a monthly fee clearly out-way the disadvantages of a subscription.

If you could pay a monthly fee and work your way up to owning a perpetual license, then I would fully agree with you. Then this would truly open the door to new users. But in the current CC model most of us pay a lot more and leave with nothing. Clearly that is not a good deal no matter how you try to spin it.

The major advantage I see to Adobe’s CC is the fact I will get more features and fixes on a consistent basis.

Fixes were also provided with a normal license, nothing new here. For the features we will have to wait and see what will happen. So you could be right. I wouldn't call it a major advantage.

I already pay monthly fees for video games and on-line content. The concerns expressed have to do with value for your money.

I pay a yearly fee for my Firewall and my Anti-Virus protection and I'm fine with that. You know why? Because those programs actually work great as Software as a Service.  It works great because it is 'only' a service. You don't create files that you heavily rely on for your work with a virus scanner or a firewall.

Adobe programs just aren't meant to work as SaaS. The problem is that everything around the Cloud does function as SaaS. I'm talking about Behance/ProSite/Cloud storage etc. This causes the core Adobe programs to be dragged into the Cloud in order to make the added SaaS features successful. So the Cloud is SaaS. The core programs however are not. Having to pay a monthly fee forever is pure and simple a major ripoff.

With the advent of the CC, Adobe is now positioned to improve their products dynamically in order to keep up with emerging technologies.

No, Adobe is now positioned to milk their customers every month without having to innovate. What are you going to do if they don't improve their products the way you predict? If you stop paying you can't open up your files anymore. You won't be able to do any work for your clients. In other words, you wouldn't be able to afford to leave even if you wanted to. With a perpetual license we actually get to decide that for ourselves. You don't seem to understand how bad this move actually is by Adobe by removing future perpetual licenses.

And the best part of all, they make it affordable in the short-term to those of us still learning and climbing the creative ladder.

"Affordable in the short-term to learn the software"  Yes, I'll give you that. This is better than a 30 day trial period. But it should not be your end goal to rent.... it's a start until you can afford a perpetual license.

That means more talented people sharing their work, better opportunities to partner with people internationally, and collaborate on projects to help each creative person grow.

No. This does not magically create more talented people. This also doesn't magically create better opportunities to partner up with other people. People were collaborating on projects just fine. In fact, all these recent 'game changers' and policy changes just make it more difficult to work together. Adobe has become unpredictable.

What is the alternative?

Corel? Give me a break. The other unacceptable alternative would be piracy.

That depends on the person. For me it's:

Xara Designer Pro X for vectors and layout purposes.

I use ZBrush for 3D.

Capture One Express 7 for RAW files.

Painter 12 for... well, painting.

I also have ArtRage 4 that I use occasionally.

Photoshop is definitely still a major part of my workflow but I'm no longer going to use InDesign, Premiere Pro or Illustrator. I can easily stop using those three programs.

The only program I'm going to have a hard time to replace is Photoshop. But while I make the transition my perpetual license for Photoshop will work just fine alongside the rest. No need to go pirate anything.

And speaking of Corel, I did get a license to CorelDraw X6 and VideoStudio.

I signed up for their subscription back when it was over $150/mo, because I couldn't afford to pay thousands of dollars. So when I saw my bill go down and learned of Adobe's new publishing approach, I was ecstatic.

I've already covered this aspect of your thinking.

I have been an Adobe Creative Suite subscriber for two years now and have grown by leaps and bounds as an artist and can finally start my own business. Sure, you can fork out the money to buy it outright, but people like me can’t.

Good that you've grown by leaps and bounds and can start your own business. And no, I am not being sarcastic. I really mean it. As a freelancer myself I know it's a great feeling to get something of the ground.

But all of this was achievable before the Creative Cloud. For some reason you only wanted the Masters Collection and not a cheaper bundle to get started. Why?

[Randall B Miller]

Thanks, I love a list of alternatives. No one had given that out. I thought

it was just Pixelmator. Now we can discuss actual options. (I've never used

non-Adobe)

"That depends on the person. For me it's:

Xara Designer Pro X for vectors and layout purposes.

I use ZBrush for 3D.

*Capture One Express 7 *for RAW files.

Painter 12 for... well, painting.

I also have ArtRage 4 that I use occasionally."

[Randall B Miller]

Isn't Adobe's Elements series designed for those that want much of the functionality, but none of the subscription?

Can Photoshop Elements work with other's software so you dont need CC at all? I feel this is why Adobe has Elements, for those that don't want to subscribe (use other programs to convert to CMYK, or let the pdf creation make it happen)

[Jeff_Know1]

I've never used a MAC so I can't try out Pixelmator. I've started out with Non-Adobe software so I guess it's easier for me to pack up my bags and leave. Adobe software has always been an add-on for me. A very valuable add-on, but still.

Isn't Adobe's Elements series designed for those that want much of the functionality, but none of the subscription?

At this point I don't care what Elements can do. Adobe has royally pissed me off with this move. It started with the only-one-version-behind upgrade policy knowing full well they were getting rid of upgrade paths to future perpetual licenses! And now they expect our complete trust by renting the software AND removing any exit plan. Thanks, but no thanks.

rmdtulsa wrote:

I guess I don't in believe in "perpectual"--Mac and PC systems change so much over 3-6 years, they don't run software you own.

And you can't get support [...]

I can't imagine any software I buy today working on 2020 computers. I don't believe in software that runs forever.

We PC people don't talk like that. I can still run Windows 2000 just fine. I don't actually have any need to do so... thankfully, but it's still an option. And support isn't needed. If a program ran fine 10 years ago, it will run fine now. I'll make it to 2020 with this computer running on Windows 7 if I have to.

When I get a new computer I leave everything intact on the old one. Only firewalls and virus scanners will stop working for me. That's the beauty of not relying on rented programs.

rmdtulsa wrote:
Maybe my real problem is on the "perpectual" thing. If I don't buy a new machine every 6 years I'm out of the loop anyways.

I can understand that, especially on the MAC side. But I'm not talking about never upgrading or becoming out of the loop. I would have upgraded my Adobe license if it wasn't for the CC only choice.

I'm talking about when or if I want to quit I should have the ability to do so. At that point it's not about being out of the loop since you wouldn't necessarily use the programs that often anymore anyway. It's all about having continuous file access. I couldn't care less how out of date the program is. As long as I can still open and use my files without paying Adobe for that simple privilege.

[Brntoki]

How awesome that you get to spend $600 this year . . . . . . . . . . and next year, and next year, and next year . . .

[Randall B Miller]

Making a living on something $600 a year...I'm fine with that.

And I'm not sarcastic. I'd much rather pay 1/12 once a month than 100% once

a year (but that's just me)

[Cankre7]

Understandable. But don't you have a problem with potentially losing access to all your hard work? PS was hacked already...Who's to say some yahoo doesn't hack and bring it all crashing down ala Playstation. Can you afford to be with out access to your software for weeks? We can't. That would bankrupt us.

[Randall B Miller]

Everything's backed up four times over, hourly and daily and I have the

Suite running legally on non internet machines. It's dead last in my

worries.

[Kwan Parker]

From: rmdtulsa

Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 8:22 AM

To: Kwan Parker

Subject: Why We're Not Signing Up To Adobe Creative Cloud.

Re: Why We're Not Signing Up To Adobe Creative Cloud.

created by rmdtulsa <http://forums.adobe.com/people/rmdtulsa> in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion <http://forums.adobe.com/message/5435102#5435102

[Greg_Bohn]

jballman73 wrote:

Companies are already doing this. Microsoft Office is now a pay monthly service, office 365, Playstation is now moving to a monthly fee and xbox one is now a monthly fee too. It definitely looks like this is the way companies are going to start running things.

Comapanies want to make this the only option, but so far most still have a perpetual option.

[SoilentGreen]

Companies are already doing this. Microsoft Office is now a pay monthly service, office 365, Playstation is now moving to a monthly fee and xbox one is now a monthly fee too. It definitely looks like this is the way companies are going to start running things.

All of the above are optional.

XBOX Live is a service,  PS+ is a service,  and you can still get a regular boxed copy of Office.

[Rosa Brand]

SoilentGreen wrote:

Companies are already doing this. Microsoft Office is now a pay monthly service, office 365, Playstation is now moving to a monthly fee and xbox one is now a monthly fee too. It definitely looks like this is the way companies are going to start running things.

All of the above are optional.

XBOX Live is a service,  PS+ is a service,  and you can still get a regular boxed copy of Office.

Then let me make a suggestion. Take all your work that you're doing, save it in formats compatible with other programs (yes, you can do this with almost all types of files) and try the competitor. Yes, that is an option and maybe a viable one for you.

If that doesn't work...

Get together with everyone else who is unhappy with Adobe's move, get some programmers together, get a Kickstarter going and make a product the way you want to.

[SoilentGreen]

Thanks for the snippy reply,  but my post was " in reply to jballman73" who seems to think that everything is moving to a subscription model.  I just stated that this wasn't true.

[Rosa Brand]

Like I've said before, go out there and create the product you want so badly. Clearly, you think there is a market for it. So do it. Nothing is more motiviating than hatred. So take that distain and turn it into something positive by creating a product people will want to buy that isn't on a subcription. This way there are alternatives.

And that wasn't necessarily directed to you, SoilentGreen. Sorry for the snip.

[jballman73]

Yes xbox and PS are optional but office isn't. And yes, Microsoft is selling regular box software, for now. It is true that a lot of companies are going to follow the lead of subscription based service. If you can't see that now, well, that's sad. The only way for companies to consistently increase profits for their shareholders, is to guarantee that they will have a consistant source of income coming in. It may not happen within the next year or two, but if companies like Adobe and Microsoft are starting this movement, other companies will do the same.

[Kwan Parker]

We're customers.  Not investors nor stockholders.

Thanks, Madison (ghost adobe moderator) for making this post possible, since it offends no pet.

Was banned from posting from 6/6 to 6/19 for a second offense attacking pro cloud customers.

Not my forum . . . not my rules.

Prior to Adobe Cash Cow, never posted messages reaching anywhere near 100, don't even think post reached half that.

I was pretty much a happy camper  updating right up to CS6 Master Collection.

In some areas, Adobe does keep promises . . . on this date I was allowed to post.

Meanwhile, the person I supposedly attacked was featured in an Adobe sidebar.  No wonder Adobe loves her.  (Is that an attack which gets me suspended or banned?)

Truth will come out about a year or so from now.  Discounts end.  Surge of enrollments level out.  Legacy customers find other software.

Smart major customers like Corel will extend their switch offers beyond thier usual offer.  CS6 is still vital and Adobe, though willing, will not be quick to switch.  No advantage to Corel customers nor others.

Corel needs to offer something to former Adobe customers, long term.

[Dragonspear]

I'll second a lot of the thoughts on this thread:

In regards to Adobe's new CC subscription marketing...I don't like it. I don't like it one single bit. In fact, it's caused me to really rethink how I'm going to have to operate my business. The whole benefit to purchasing a product is having it there when you need it, regardless of how out of date it might be. It's also a tease baiting current customers into CC with the 19.99 year price because after your first year you're paying $50 DOLLARS per month! For me, that's more than TWICE a year what I spent from just upgrading software packages.

To me, the subscription system for software is a GREAT idea for those who need to trial the software, or who cannot currently afford to purchase the product as a whole.  It's like renting a movie, or a car, or a house instead of going out and purchasing it. Sometimes you need something, but can't afford it...so you borrow/rent/lease it.  But, as we all know...those RENT-TO-OWN stores are a complete rip-off. They prey on those who don't have the money or discipline to save up for something they want. ...but I see what Adobe is doing as WORSE! We no longer even get the choice to own...we HAVE to rent it or we don't get it.

For someone like me who has saved up, and wants to OWN that favorite movie, or car, or home, and is going to count on it for their daily use in life, a subscription/rental system means you never really own it. It means you're free to keep it as long as you keep handing someone money. Sure, they'll make sure you always have the recent model...but the minute you stop, someone comes and takes it away from you and you're left to walk to work or find another home.  What we're doing now is not purchasing software, we're renting a temporary privilege to use it!

Adobe, I believe this is slap in the face to customers, and it tells me that you are more focused on making money than you are in appealing to "all" customers. You may pick up some renters...but for people like me, it means ...well...honestly, I'm not sure what it means.  What do you do when someone tells you that you now have to pay $500 a month to have your car...and that you'll be paying that fee for the REST OF YOUR LIFE without ever actually owning it?  ...it kind of makes me wanna ride a bike instead.

Fortunately for me, I have the current model (CS6). I might not be getting the latest and greatest anytime soon...but I believe I have a car right now that can last me quite a few years.

Adobe, I hope you change your stance on this. It's important to have use of your product, even AFTER we've paid thousands of dollars for it. For now, I'm thankful that I have a few licenses under my utility belt...until things change, I plan on hanging on to the current model for as long as possible.