Dreamweaver and CMS

[DS8108]

What tools can I provide a customer for editing his/her website (CMS) after I design in Dreamweaver.

I have a customer that would like to maintain certain areas of their website. I looked for pricing on InContext editing and it appears to not be available any longer. So how can I set this up for them?

[MurraySummers]

Investigate:

PowerCMS from http://www.webassist.com

Perch from http://grabaperch.com

Content Seed from http://contentseed.com

CushyCMS from http://cushycms.com

All will require some familiarity with server scripting.

[DS8108]

Thanks, Murray. I'm going to look into those right now.

I've almost finished my current project using Dreamweaver only. How do you feel about Adobe Business Catalyst? Doesn't it have some sort of CMS Maintenance for the client? I thought about using it for future projects. My main concern moving forward is to use something that is going to be around for a long time.

[MurraySummers]

It's a possibility.  Longevity would be my worry here too.

[Nancy OShea]

If you go into the project knowing the client want's a CMS, install WordPress, Drupal or Concrete 5 on the server and use that to build your site.   Since the CMS is installed on your server, it can't go away.

Nancy O.

Alt-Web Design & Publishing

Web | Graphics | Print | Media  Specialists 

http://alt-web.com/

http://twitter.com/altweb

[DS8108]

Nancy,

I feel like I'm learning a completely new language. It's a little intimidating. So please forgive my many questions to follow.

Are you saying that if I build/design a website using Dreamweaver, then this client cannot use WordPress to edit those two or three pages they need to maintain?

And would that be WordPress.org or WordPress.com? Is this the program that your clients use as CMS?

Are there any tuts that you would recommend for me to watch/read first? I did try to use that famous 5 minute install once several months ago, got completely confused as it didn't seem to work and I didn't understand how to install it. I finally gave up.

Thanks,
Donna

[MurraySummers]

Honestly, I don't encourage new users who are totally unfamiliar with HTML/CSS much less server scripting to pick up Wordpress, Drupal, Concrete or Joomla.  Your head will explode in no time.

[DS8108]

Well I'm familiar with basic HTML/CSS, and trying my best to advance at this point. I know enough to be dangerous, but I'm smart enough to always keep a fresh backup copy of my site in case I destroy it at 3 a.m. when I'm too stubborn to give up and go to bed.

But I need something easy that a client can just edit news items that appears in one page (I have this nested in an iframe) and also change out corresponding photos on the page. That's it. Very simple information and nothing technical.

[adninjastrator]

It sounds like you want to use the Web site that you have already designed and somehow incorporate some CMS into this existing Web site... is that correct?

While starting from scratch with a real CMS... WordPress or whatever may have been the best option, I'll purpose a second option that would allow you to use your currently designed site AND allow your client to do minor updates and edits.

Teach them some very basic HTML... how to edit what appears between a <p>and the </p>.... how to copy/paste an existing paragraph so now they have a second <p>and some more text</p> how to add an image, and maybe a <h1>Heading tag</h>

All you/they really need for minor edits to an existing site is to learn 6-8 HTML tags.... that would cover the vast majority of minor edits to an existing Web site.

They will need a copy of NotePad++ or a MAC text editor for the editing:

http://notepad-plus-plus.org/

and Filezilla or Cyberduck for FTP:

http://filezilla-project.org/

http://cyberduck.ch/

Give them a two hour or so tutorial/lesson and links to a few help sites like:

http://www.w3schools.com/html/

Might seem a little scary... but speaking from experience, I just moved this site away from a Drupal site and rebuilt the entire thing in HTML and with just a little coaching have turned simple edits over to the "Web Committee".

http://www.olympicdiscoverytrail.com/

Now they are making all the minor edits/ additions, etc and are finding it at least as simple as the learning curve associated with Drupal.

But whether you go with a full blown CMS or teach them a little HTML......

wishing you the best of luck!

Adninjastrator

[Guest]

Thank you for your input.  I took a course where we used Cyberduck and am familiar with it, so I guess I need to find the copy that will go with CS5 and use it.  My question about the container has not been answered, so I think I am just going to have to plow ahead on this, maybe try 2 different versions, save one with one name and another with a different one then save the one that seems to work the best as my index file.  The client will be posting himself, I am only doing the design which once again, is going to be a real simple one but customized with a photoshop banner.  Thankfully the client is a real patient person, but I would not say that patience is limitedless, so I best get started.

[adninjastrator]

Just to clarify, if you design your own site in CS5 using HTML, you cannot just import that site into a Content Management System. You can "integrate" the look and feel of your site by editing the CSS and some of the .php files, but it will be a completely different site than the one you designed.

CMS web sites can be easier for your client to update but you style them around a prebuilt site... not the site you have already built.... but they are not the only possible solution.

My question about the container has not been answered

With all the discussion, I may have missed this part, can you repeat that question?

Best wishes,

Adninjastrator

[Guest]

Does everything have to go in a container? I think I am answering my own

questions guys, but thanks for your input. In detail: Sure you can put

everything in a container in your website but do you have to? This link

will give you the article that got me to ask my question in the first

place:

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/articles/first_website_pt2.html The

reason we use containers at all on our websites is positioning, so our

stuff doesn't float all over the place and look funny. *If, instead of

putting a container in the coding right away you just put a photoshop

document (a banner with a really wide width) are there any browsers that

will just either totally hide the banner or put your next line (either text

or maybe a menu bar) next to it*? Photoshop documents seem to be just

really wonderful things.* Perhaps because they have a width and a height

they are already in a container?* I love the fact that with Photoshop

documents you select your typestyle, and no matter what, it will stay that

typestyle because it is an actual picture of the text and doesn't have rely

on whether or not the user has that particular typestyle on their

computer. As far as the reason why I need to use something like wordpress

at all? Well, the boss just wants to be able get on the internet, log into

his website type his article. (He doesn't want to learn HTML, and actually

he doesn't even want to pick colors of anything.) Imagine that, leaving

the design for the most part, up to the designer? I know there are

millions of places where he can do this. However, he wants me to do this

website for him, and I'm doing it. Perhaps I am asking the wrong

question? Perhaps I should have asked: *What browsers make your stuff

look really funky?* Thanks for all your effort guys.

[MurraySummers]

Does everything have to go in a container?

No.  The body tag is a container and as such can be used for many things instead of the more traditional <div id="wrapper"> as a container.  As an example. consider this -

body {

     width:980px;

     margin:0 auto;

}

The page will be 980px wide and centered.  However, if you are using absolutely positioned elements on such a page, and need them to center along with the content then this will not work (at least I can't get it to - and intellectually, it's a bit 'off center', so to speak) -

body {

     width:980px;

     margin:0 auto;

     position:relative;

}

Also, you frequently see things like this -

<div id="menu">

     <ul>

          <li><a href="">whatever</a></li>

...

when all you really need is this -

<ul id="menu">

      <li><a href="">whatever</a></li>

and so on.  Containers tend to be overused, but other than code bloat, I suppose there's no real harm in doing so.

[adninjastrator]

Hey Blue Shamrock,

Seems like your "container" question may have come from another post. OK... so yes, best practice would be to put all you content into a:

div =id="main_container">

or some other "wrapper" <div> that holds all the content (which of course can and would be other <div>s etc).

But just to be clear, if you use WordPress or almost any other CMS, the container <div>s are spead out over hundreds of "building block" files, each which only have one or a couple containers and there is NO one page that holds all the containers.

The finished Web pages are created dynamically from those "building blocks" depending on Web address or user input.

So yes, it's a good idea to put things into a container <div>.... but how those <div>s are assembled on the Web page will depend on if you are using a static HTML site or a dynamic .php, ASP, or some other server side pages.

Best wishes,

Adninjastrator

[Guest]

This was helpful, and your site looks nice.

[John Waller]

Murray *ACP* wrote:

Honestly, I don't encourage new users who are totally unfamiliar with HTML/CSS much less server scripting to pick up Wordpress, Drupal, Concrete or Joomla.  Your head will explode in no time.

In relation to Wordpress, I think it's excellent for new users. Simplicity itself.

Sure, for custom tweaking the CSS, it requires intermediate to advanced CSS. But that doesn't have to stop novices from using its front end and experimenting with the built-in settings.

I have seen many novices install it from a cPanel (Fantastico) within a minute and get a functioning Wordpress site filled with content up and running within an hour.

The one-click themes, thousands of plugins and the many powerful but user-friendly Settings in the Admin area gets their creative juices flowing and shields them from being exposed to code until they're ready.

[mytaxsite]

Are you saying that if I build/design a website using Dreamweaver, then this client cannot use WordPress to edit those two or three pages they need to maintain?

What people are implying here is that if you decide to use WordPress then you don't need DreamWeaver.  The reason for this is that there is nothing to design in Wordpress!!.  All you need is a theme and your own logos and that is all.  As you are familiar with basic HTML/CSS, you should be able to make changes ro the various CSS files that come with themes in WordPress.

Good luck and if you need any help with WP, you could try this link:

<http://wordpress.org/support/>

Get going and start doing something.

[Nancy OShea]

Easy is a relative term here.  WordPress out of the box without any customization is simple to use.  Once deployed, you log-in to the Admin Panel to create pages, blog posts, etc...  Non-coders, seniors, kids, all manage to use it successfully.

WordPress.org is  where you download the free software and get  documentation on how to use it.

WordPress.com is instant gratification (hosting & WordPress in one place).  Sign-up for a free account to test it. https://en.wordpress.com/signup/

That's the easy part.

Under the hood,  WordPress comes with approx. 900 files in some 80 folders.  But none of these are actual web pages.  It's all just code.  The actual content is stored in MySql databases on the server.   When all the parts are assembled by the server, ta da, a dynamic web page displays in the browser.

A static web site you built in Dreamweaver will have no connection to your WordPress site.   You would have to re-build the pages in WordPress to make them editable by the client.  Or keep the main site pages static (not editable without you) and let them use WordPress exclusively for blogging, press releases, event calendars, etc...

Nancy O.

Alt-Web Design & Publishing

Web | Graphics | Print | Media  Specialists 

http://alt-web.com/

http://twitter.com/altweb

[DS8108]

Have you used WEBASSIST as a CMS? I'm really interested and since it's a "boxed" program with no monthly fees, am considering it. Any feedback on them specifically?

On the other end of the spectrum is Perch.

I just don't want a monthly service kind of situation.

Thanks, Donna

[mhollis55]

I have used WebAssist, but not as a CMS. I bought their Power Suite.

They build very good plugins into Dreamweaver and they are totally solid. Their plugins are not as customizable or adaptable as Project Seven's stuff, but P7 doesn't make a CMS. The rest of the company's tools do recommend the company.

[Ben M]

On the other end of the spectrum is Perch.

I just don't want a monthly service kind of situation.

Isn't Perch a per-website fee and not a monthly fee?  From the Perch website:

Perch costs £35 (+ VAT where applicable) as a one-off unrestricted license cost per website. Perch runs on your own server and there are no ongoing monthly costs.

[DS8108]

Yes. You are correct. I actually went through their trial and decided to purchase it, but my bank denied the charges. I called the bank and told them it wasn't fraud and tried again with no success. So I e-mailed Perch and they said there was nothing to do on their end. I'm on a time-crunch and need to get going so I gave up on it.

I also looked into SetSeed. I love the way his program works, however I had troubles downloading the software. You basically install it, set up your site and then before making it all work, you buy a key. BUT I can't seem to get it installed so I moved on again.

So I'm back to WEBASSIST. I really liked it from the beginning but it was too expensive for me. Perhaps I should pay more and worry less?

So you have first hand experience with Perch?

[Ben M]

So you have first hand experience with Perch?

No I don't.  Just from reading your comment it sounded like you were dismissing them for having a monthly charge which they don't have.  Personally speaking I only like to pay in my own currency to avoid all kinds of fees and charges and exchange rates, which is probably why I've never used them although I have heard of them. 

And with that SetSeed, if you like it have you tried contacting them for support?  If you have to pay them eventually and they want you as a customer I'd expect decent support responses from them.  They will be better suited to help you with the setup of their product over us. 

With WebAssist I've never been impressed with boxed CMS solutions although I did briefly look into their Cashie solution for an ecommerce project I was working on (ecommerce was later dropped from site for budget). Personally I think some of the original recommendations for skinning Wordpress would be an excellent solution.  Plus it has plenty of modules to add-in and is very user friendly.

I've also installed CMS Made Simple ( http://www.cmsmadesimple.org/ ).  That went pretty well for a client.  Setup is a little longer than a typical Wordpress, but it feels more like a CMS than a blog.  Modules are ok, but they are going through some updating and they haven't cleaned up the out of date modules in awhile.  Also everything is stored in the database: templates, CSS, page data and that has its pluses and minuses.

There's also:

ModX Revolution - Simple setup, easy to use for semi-tech background, lacks lots of modules, but very dedicated community.

Joomla - I've seen companies get by with this.  Needs a developer to setup, but once skinned, the admin interface is pretty intuitive

PyroCMS - This one looks pretty interesting from a coding standpoint and I am redoing a site in it now.  Definitely young compared to most, built on CodeIgniter framework, but looks promising.

And a bunch of others I know of, but mostly by name not from experience like:

Drupal - Horrible for non-technical, steep learning curve

Typo3 - Another powerful CMS, very difficult setup, very steep learning curve, installation fairly technical

Contao - Based on Typo3 - Easier to setup than Typo3 (I don't have real experience trying this one)

[martcol]

SnakEyez02 wrote:

Personally I think some of the original recommendations for skinning Wordpress would be an excellent solution.  Plus it has plenty of modules to add-in and is very user friendly.

I think that Wordpress might be a good option to consider too.   However, if you are on a deadline, and have never used it before you will have a bit of catch up to do.

Advantages of WP?  Very well documented, huge userbase, comprehensive, quick to set up, fairly intuitive (more so with latest 3.3), masses of plugins, masses of themes, Some excellent premium stuff but loads of free stuff, not too difficult for users to get the hang of.

Disadvantages?  So much documentation can be difficult to find what you need, support forums can be a bit sniffy (Sitepoint forum is better), plenty of crap plugins out there, need to take care with security, users will need training, can take a bit of heavy lifting to put your own mark on it.  Lots to learn.

You could get a straight forward WP site up and running in an hour or two.

If you want to go this way and want to skin your theme, find out about child themes.

Martin

[edit] WP support forum can be sniffy - not this one!

[DS8108]

Martin,

This may be another stupid question to add to my list of them, but is it possible to build this site in dreamweaver (which I already have) and then have my client pages that he/she needs to edit inside an iframe....and those pages be built in wordpress and editable in wordpress?

Thanks,

Donna