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Replies
php is by far one of the most simplest of languages to learn and comes as a complete package, no middleware required, unlike node, no routing set up, unlike node, no bloated website folder, full of files/folders you have zero idea of what they do or are doing (assuming you steer clear of frameworks), unlike node, which relies on bloated folders/files structure........I could go on where I think node is deficient but I'll leave it at that.
By @osgood_
You seem to forget Apache and or Nginx which is part of the bloated PHP framework.
Node.js
On the surface, it may seem that Node.js requires more lines of code to execute the same functions as PHP. Thankfully, you need not remember the syntax of different languages while coding because the entire development environment is programmed with Javascript, the same as for the front end. So Node.js may sometimes require relatively longer lines of code, but it operates with only one language. This is all the code that is required for a Node.js HTML server:
app = express();
http.createServer(app).listen(80); // serve HTTP directly
PHP
PHP has been around for a while and has flourished significantly over the years. It may seem from afar that PHP requires lesser lines of code to perform a function and is thus easier. But then, you need to be fluent in how operators and generators work in Linux, Apache HTTP Server, MySQL, and PHP itself (commonly referred to as LAMP).
php is by far one of the most simplest of languages to learn and comes as a complete package, no middleware required, unlike node, no routing set up, unlike node, no bloated website folder, full of files/folders you have zero idea of what they do or are doing (assuming you steer clear of frameworks), unlike node, which relies on bloated folders/files structure........I could go on where I think node is deficient but I'll leave it at that.
By @osgood_
You seem to forget Apache and or Nginx which is part of the bloated PHP framework.
Node.js
On the surface, it may seem that Node.js requires more lines of code to execute the same functions as PHP. Thankfully, you need not remember the syntax of different languages while coding because the entire development environment is programmed with Javascript, the same as for the front end. So Node.js may sometimes require relatively longer lines of code, but it operates with only one language. This is all the code that is required for a Node.js HTML server:
app = express(); http.createServer(app).listen(80); // serve HTTP directlyBy @BenPleysier
and the routing for node.....are you going to show us that as opposed to vanilla php:
index.php
or do you want me to show it?
PHP
PHP has been around for a while and has flourished significantly over the years. It may seem from afar that PHP requires lesser lines of code to perform a function and is thus easier. But then, you need to be fluent in how operators and generators work in Linux, Apache HTTP Server, MySQL, and PHP itself (commonly referred to as LAMP).
By @BenPleysier
No idea what you are talking about, example? - you seem to be making things harder as usual than what is necessary.
and the routing for node.....are you going to show us that as opposed to vanilla php:
index.php
By @osgood_
You have supplied the proof that PHP remains to be interesting for bland websites.
It is once you get to
products.php?cat="1"&id="256"
that the URL would look better as
products/clothing/mens-hats
Even with PHP and .htaccess it can be done. But not if you have an Nginx server because they think that .htaccess slows the process down.
and the routing for node.....are you going to show us that as opposed to vanilla php:
index.php
By @osgood_
You have supplied the proof that PHP remains to be interesting for bland websites.
It is once you get to
products.php?cat="1"&id="256"
that the URL would look better as
products/clothing/mens-hats
Even with PHP and .htaccess it can be done. But not if you have an Nginx server because they think that .htaccess slows the process down.
By @BenPleysier
Only deploy to an Apache web-server then - job done.
If I can remember I think it takes 3/4 lines of additional code to add to the .htaccess file to obtain 'pretty urls' if that is something you feel is important. With Node you have to create every single route and keep those routes in several different files, who wants additional files and code to manage for what you call 'bland' websites.
Im not saying node is no good. I'm saying it takes a lot more managment and file/folder organisation than php. For simple dynamic websites, which the majority will be working on, it is something I personally dont need. I have enough headaches without adding to them.
Yes IF you dont want to learn php because you know javascript inside and out, dont mind a few dozen extra files/folders in your site folder, like using the terminal, want to be bothered about using a rigid folder/file structure, import all kinds of middleware then node might seem simpler.
@osgood_this post definely hits the mark for me. I am passionate about what I do and what I produce; I'm less driven by money (probably to my detriment). So... I've resolved to take my learning beyong static sites, into the world of PHP, MySQL... I'd rather steer my own ship and not be reliant on other developers/platforms. And Dreamweaver... I'm not convinced (although as an Adobe fan, I want to be). I'm trying Atom with a browser bolted on. As a learner, I think this might serve me well. Thanks all so much for your contributions - a genuine help.
By @Martin23313377qhnk
Hi Martin.
Most probably coming from a creative background we share a kindered spirit that perhaps wouldnt be as important to someone coming from outside of that sector.
Money is obviously an important factor and not a dirty word (you have to live) but I think when it becomes the main motivator it corrupts the soul.
I would try VS Code as an editor. It has numerous extentions, is considered to be the current best free editor on the market and is being actively developed. I dont know the status of Atom, its not an editor that gets much attention from developers these days. It used to be considered as one of the big 3 - VS Code, Sublime Text and Atom - but over recent years I think its usage has declined. Having said that when used it I found it to be a nice editor if a bit slow. compared to the others. If it gets the job done for you and you feel good developing within its environment then use it.
As I said previously, WP community is soooooo large that there is always some one out there to help.
By @B i r n o u
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Yes, WordPress is PHP/MySQL driven and has a very strong community to support it. So someone can usually pick-up where the lead developer left off when the time comes. That can be said also for other popular frameworks & platforms -- Bootstrap, Drupal, Magento, Node, etc... which is probably a good thing.
Whereas bespoke (custom) created systems are a question mark. Perhaps not as portable or attractive to other developers. One never knows what they're getting into with bespoke systems until they examine it closely under a microscope. It could be great or it could be a train-wreck.
=========
Yes, WordPress is PHP/MySQL driven and has a very strong community to support it. So someone can usually pick-up where the lead developer left off when the time comes. That can be said also for other popular frameworks & platforms -- Bootstrap, Drupal, Magento, Node, etc... which is probably a good thing.
Whereas bespoke (custom) created systems are a question mark. Perhaps not as portable or attractive to other developers. One never knows what they're getting into with bespoke systems until they examine it closely under a microscope. It could be great or it could be a train-wreck.
By @Nancy OShea
Well this is the problem.....too many options. In a land, long, long ago, when the World was sane, developers were more or less singing from the same hymn sheet. Yes, a few debates over this or that but nothing like the carnage it is today. When a client approached me to take over a website I had a 50/50 chance I could analyse the code and know what was going on. Today I have about a 1% chance given the options/workflows available, you mention just the mere tip of the iceberg.
This not only presents a problem for clients trying to locate a developer that would be willing to take over a second hand website but for website developers in general as it lessens the chance and opportunities that come their way. Its a lose, lose situation for everyone involved.
Everyone's replaceable. The question is at what cost?
The choices we make today can have long term effects long after we leave this profession. It's more cost effective for the client if what we do today is portable and easily picked-up by other capable developers.
By @Nancy OShea
I agree and thats my whole argument, much of whats happening is NOT transportable, easily picked up by other capable developers, maybe both. I doubt you would know how to update a Wix, Weebly, SquareSpace, EditorX, Webflow, Wappler blah blah website or a website made with React, Angular, Vue, Python, Node, Mango, Dango, Firebase, Svelte, App Connect and the rest.
Once you might have been able to call yourself a capable knowledgable developer........now I'm not so sure.
Once you might have been able to call yourself a capable knowledgable developer........now I'm not so sure.
By @osgood_
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Is that remark directed at me???? Or you just projecting?
I think that the substance of the debate is getting lost, and is going into unrealistic subjectivities... or ill-adapted shortcuts... associating passion, money, tools remains, in my opinion, nonsense, away from reality...By @B i r n o u
Personal I think you're incorrect. I was passionate about what I did for a living until I retired (semi-retired). It was part of my journey through life and I feel very strongly that my skills and knowledge was gradually downgraded and diminished by automation, which in my opinion attracted a lot of 'corruption' into the industry which drove prices to the floor. Yes, I accepted it because that is what happens in every industry eventually as the 'money thieves' move in and produce programmes that make it easy for anyone to do what a profession once did but I dont think you should be blinkered to the fact that this just downgrades a profession, at least doesnt help it.
By @B i r n o uthen tie the money to that ???? ... precisely... developing a site for a client who has no budget, if we start from a blank page and develop everything from A to Z in the rules art... will necessarily cause an imbalance, either too expensive for the client... or no return for the developer (excluding abusive philanthropy)... in both cases one or the other is harmed. .. even if you pool the resources involved
You seem to be just echoing what Im saying. Professionals can't compete to produce the quality and considered product that is really required as a result of 'easy' options. The professional then 'prositutes' themselves for less money than their skills merit to compete against amatuers who dont care much about the service they provide. How many projects would you have to turn over a year at £1000.00 for a small client website to earn a decent living, say 35k here in the UK. 35 websites a year, I dont know any freelance web-developer that can sustain that and 35k isnt that great a wage these days for a skilled exponent.
I stopped doing work because I thought my skills and knowledge were just wasted on clients that had no repect for what producing quality websites entailed. I wasnt going to provide that skill and knowledge for a stupid price. I have principles, some may have principles, but have no option but to take the work on at a lower price than what they wanted then as a result have no choice but to take short cuts, ending in a product that they are not really satified with, where's the job satsifaction?
Personal I think you're incorrect. I was passionate about what I did for a living until I retired (semi-retired). It was part of my journey through life and I feel very strongly that my skills and knowledge was gradually downgraded and diminished by automation,
By @osgood_
I simply had to develop my argument incorrectly, because I never implied that you were not passionate in your approach. I was trying to show that passion was not systematically linked to this or that method... it was in the way the method was approached that the passion resided. The way that the action was done.
I stopped doing work because I thought my skills and knowledge were just wasted on clients that had no repect for what producing quality websites entailed. I wasnt going to provide that skill and knowledge for a stupid price. I have principles, some may have principles, but have no option but to take the work on at a lower price than what they wanted then as a result have no choice but to take short cuts, ending in a product that they are not really satified with, where's the job satsifaction?
By @osgood_
Although I share your vision of a certain reality, I do not entirely agree on the finality of your reasoning.
the market has changed in the last decade, as I was trying to demonstrate a few days ago in another thread... the world has changed, the economy has changed, the world of small business has simply been swept away by the conglomerate of large entities... and/or large retailers, not to mention the free DIY sites available that have pretty much attacked the remaining markets available for very small businesses...
many developers have become too big for small markets... but have remained too small for the democratizing markets around the mass market
it no longer comes down to... either I'm a prost***tute or I'm willingly devaluing myself... you may have sulked (excuse the term) and not rolled up your sleeves because you were close to retirement and somewhere financially secure... but many developers , out there, who have to cope and have an income to live on, have to adapt, use their super knowledge in order to survive and just not be shamelessly exploited... but also not become greedy in their turn
I stopped doing work because I thought my skills and knowledge were just wasted on clients that had no repect for what producing quality websites entailed. I wasnt going to provide that skill and knowledge for a stupid price. I have principles, some may have principles, but have no option but to take the work on at a lower price than what they wanted then as a result have no choice but to take short cuts, ending in a product that they are not really satified with, where's the job satsifaction?
By @osgood_
Although I share your vision of a certain reality, I do not entirely agree on the finality of your reasoning.
the market has changed in the last decade, as I was trying to demonstrate a few days ago in another thread... the world has changed, the economy has changed, the world of small business has simply been swept away by the conglomerate of large entities... and/or large retailers, not to mention the free DIY sites available that have pretty much attacked the remaining markets available for very small businesses...
By @B i r n o u
Did I not mention the influence of Facebook, Twitter, are they not big enough for you plus I mentioned the DIY web-development sector? Did I not mention some developers may have principles but are unable to fulfil those principles due to market forces? Does this not lead to an attitude problem 'if you dont pay me enough for my skills I wont supply you with a credible solution, but a cheap one? I wont be there when you call for help or answer your email promptly because you have no repect. Does it not spawn a lack of passion and committment for producing the job correctly? Are you ok with the degradation of your chosen profession, which has been infested and blighted by amatuers or poor cheap DIY solutions. Im not blind, I know it's there but I cant say Im deliriously happy.
Fortunatley you're are correct, I dont have to be part of it if I choose. If I did have to be part of it, there is zero way I would even consider being a freelance web-developer these days. But lets not kid ourselves, web-devlopment these days is a growing amount of smaller and smaller groups, all who think they are correct. That doesnt help the profession, it causes confusion, instability and frustration, which I see growing all the time.
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