Is there any way to display the Design View in fluid grid pages?

[Ron Kurtus]

After upgrading to the newest version of DW CC 2014, I noticed that the Design View is disabled in Fluid Grid pages. You can only use the Live View to edit those pages. The Design/Live button displays on non-fluid pages.

I'm wondering if there is a work-around to allow Design View editing on fluid pages. It is a major hassle to try to edit some things in the Live View. It would nice to have a choice.

[Vernon Benjafield]

Sorry, but that's not quite correct - until you actually save a document Dreamweaver doesn't know what type of document it is. That's why design view will work on an unsaved file - it isn't a fluid grid page until it's been saved. As soon as you save it (i.e exit Dreamweaver) it is recognized as a fluid grid page and that's when design view won't be available.

[GA_]

Thanks Vernon. I think you missed my other post, ie:

Example:

1) Create a new Responsive Layout. We’ll call it demo.php, fluid.css and the usual accompanying DW files.

2) Enter demo.php and progress is normal. Everything works. You can choose to view both Live and Display and edit accordingly.

3) Close down DW.

4) Open DW and open demo.php

5) There is NO LONGER a Display View option and Live View does not EDIT. (at least it doesn't for me)

6) I can ONLY edit work in CODE view.

I ran through the above scenario whilst sharing a live link with Adobe. I demonstrated how you can create a document, save it, design it, close it, open it, edit it, close it, etc. BUT once DW is restrated, bye bye Display View and Live Editing... at least for me on Windows 7 (hate Windows 8).

[GA_]

In case this help you, and others, here's my response to Adobe.

Case #0185970795

Updated

Wednesday, 15 October 2014 09:56:59 o'clock BST

Opened

Monday, 6 October 2014 17:32:09 o'clock BST

Status

Open - Pending Adobe Response

Product

Creative Cloud Indiv

Support contract

Adobe Support Program

Subject

DW 2014.1 Design view

NOTES & RESPONSES

Notes from Customer

Wednesday, 15 October 2014 09:56:58 o'clock BST

This case is NOT closed. How dare you IGNORE me and pretend you've resolved this issue.

I reiterate:

Using 2014.1, create a NEW responsive file and design away using Code, Live and Display. All work fine. Then close down DW, reopen i
t and try to access Design View. Suddenly Display view does not exist and Live view will not edit.

If it doesn't work, it should ALWAYS not work. If it works SOME of the time, it should work ALL the time.

Result: Programming fault - not and feature.

Fix it!

[Herbert2001]

It is as Nancy stated earlier in this thread: you cannot trust the Design View. It is the first thing I tell any of my students who wants to use Dreamweaver as the main code editor: "Stay away from the Design View!".

Not saying DW is bad - by no means: it's a very good code environment. But no longer the best, unfortunately (although this is up to personal taste as well, obviously. Code editors are like clothing: everyone has his or her own taste). And almost all my students tend to favour the newer kids on the block. SublimeText, phpStorm, or Netbeans.

Of course, these students predominantly code their pages manually.

However! I do realize being able to quickly change text and content in a wysiwyg design view can give a boost in speed to update static html pages and do quick visual changes in styling. Although I do 90% of my front end development  work in a code view (Netbeans is my favourite), I also spend the remainder of that time in the code inspector in Chrome, Firefox, and Netbeans' Live view with CSS inspectors to change css parameters visually, because it regularly makes more sense to do it that way (much less trial and error).

As a matter of fact I also use Pinegrow and Macaw to complement my pure code editing with quick wysiwyg edits at times. But I also understand that this workflow is not for everyone, and many users just want one environment to deal with web pages.

Dreamweaver's Live view should become the new Design View. If you have ever worked with Macaw's or Pinegrow's live views, than you will realize how powerful such a thing can be - it is the correct decision on the part of the DW development team to put the legacy Design view out of its misery, because DW is starting to lag quite a bit compared to what else is out there. It is crucial for DW's continued survival in this tough market to migrate the wysiwyg part to the live view.

...Which leaves anyone currently depending on the Design View with a couple of simple choices:

- do not update (or roll back to the previous version). Simple enough. But I hear ya: why does Adobe send out a half-baked version then?

Well, welcome to the grand new world of CC - where everyone becomes part of the beta tester team! (At least, that's how I see it). Never update to a new version until you hear from others it is safe to do so. If you want to be cutting edge: well, there are risks involved. Things might break. Workflows may collapse. That is the price you pay for installing the newest version immediately without a thought.

This, of course, also holds true for non-CC subscription software (fair is fair). However, I do feel Adobe's applications were more thoroughly tested before the advent of CC. I've seen some REALLY odd buggy behaviour in Photoshop lately during classes. Really odd. I've not seen the like in all my time with PS since version 3(!). Anyway. I am digressing.

- if you really cannot stand where the newest DW is going, start testing the waters elsewhere. No-one is keeping you hostage: vote with your wallet. Or combine DW with other software to get what you need. Pinegrow works well together with other code editors, including DW. Luckily we have so much choice in terms of web design/dev software - DW is only one capable fish in the water. There are many other very big fish. Some work well together indeed.

But I understand that removing a number of basic features is going to hurt - same happened to Flash CC where the dev team removed many basic features users depended on. After more than a year some of these features were implement back in Flash in a better way - but in the process some users decided to move away, and others stayed, and really love the newly modernized features.

As far as I can tell, the DW dev team responded to many users complaining about the antiquated design view, and how it should be modernized. Well, that is happening as of this version. Growing pains, indeed.

[bradm44645584]

Where you state your points clearly, I can't agree with most of it. Because your methods of product delivery to your clients work for you, they don't necessarily work for everyone else. When it comes down to it the only opinion that matters is the clients you serve.

[Herbert2001]

That is very much true - which is why I wrote that it depends on who you are as a user, and your workflow/process.

Most of my clients could not care less about the tools I use to create their websites, web applications, and mobile apps. Code is code. No-one ever asked me, outside of developers themselves, which dev tools and frameworks I worked with during a project. Things change, of course, when I work in a team with people - but even then, depending on the project, the choice of code editor is often left to the programmer.

[bradm44645584]

I am glad we agree, I have just seen so often on these forms programmers slam others when they depend on things like Design view. They feel without apology that regardless of the outcome of your product that somehow its inferior and not worth the customers time.   You have a more objective view on the matter

Regardless if one sees DW is a wysiwyg or a high end code editor it is a tool I feel quite strongly that allows those to create sites that can be beyond their coding abilities. I have learned more about coding from DW then any book or class in my life. Now it may be time to put design view 'out of its misery' as you put it. But if Adobe fails to cater to those who depend on tools like design view (or something very close to it) then DW will fall into the alphabet soup of editors in which no one will pay its current price for it.

I stand corrected on one thing you posted... I agree one shouldn't post updates right away.. I did that.. stupid me

[Herbert2001]

Honestly, I would applaud any visual tool that would allow anyone to create a web standards compliant web site that sports good or, preferably, beautiful html, css, js, and php code. The web was always meant as an open publishing platform - tools like Macaw, Pinegrow. and yes, Dreamweaver are helpful in that regard.

It is just when I see tools like Muse appearing on the market that basically slap that promise right in the face - something that is very disappointing to see, because there is no reason whatsoever for the Muse developers to allow for such abysmal code. Except laziness.

[Joshbiz]

As I've mentioned before on this discussion, I'm a seasoned Dreamweaver user. I've used it for over 10 years and used to teach it in classrooms. Design View has always offered a quick and easy WYSIWYG way to update pages, particularly useful for static HTML pages but also handy for other coding situations. Split View has been great too.

I've always noticed that it's display is far from perfect but when needing to do a quick update it has always offered a fast way to find and update the relevant text, etc. It didn't need to display perfectly. Previewing in a browser or using the new Live View does this. I'd never rely on an in-house preview anyway.

And yes, you could get into a debate about whether people should still be designing static pages at all. But this is nonsense. The point is this; sometimes I design tiny websites where the client will need to rarely update their pages. A few hand coded HTML pages is perfectly suited for this. And Design View really helps with these.

I've never actually used the Design View for designing pages as such. It's more just the ease of quick updates to content when I can't be bothered to pick through the HTML. This is an approach I've used for years and, without doubt, if it is removed, my workflow will slow right down. Without Design View I have to hand code or use Live View and both these approaches are slower. I may as well just use something else entirely like Brackets.

So please don't describe Design View as 'prehistoric' and deserving to be removed. This seems short sighted.

[Tropical Soul]

joshbiz,

Well said - that is every thing i have been trying to say here and more  - thank you.

[Joshbiz]

One last additional comment...

If Live View allowed me to action quick edits, as with Design View, I'd be using it every day, all day. But I've tried using Live View and it just doesn't work the same. By the time I've battled with trying to access and update just one sentence, I could have switched to Code, Design View (or even Notepad) and done it a lot faster. Live View editing just isn't a viable option at the moment. Not only is it slow but sometimes I can't even edit a line of text.

If the intention is to replace Design View with Live View, that's great. But don't remove it until Live View allows you to edit in the same way (and at the same speed). It doesn't at the moment.

If Design View goes, other than the excellent site management tools, I would have to start questioning why I'm using Dreamweaver at all. I might as well cancel my subscription, buy a copy of Photoshop Elements and save myself £46 a month. I don't say this as an idle threat. I'm just pointing out how vital Design View is to my workflow.

[Stevefas]

I am also struggling with the removal of design view - not so much that I need it for previewing, but that it was great for editing text blocks.

An issue that stood out for me most (and made me abandon 2014.1) is that I can no longer add paragraphs of text from my clipboard and have each imported paragraph formatted with beginning and closing p tags.

I can't even select multiple paragraphs at all in live view.

For me, the gray responsive boxes, and the ability to clear and block the divs visually was a winning design view feature. I want to move forward, but I think there needs work done to be able to edit in live view.

[By_Kate]

I'm currently taking a Web Design class. The brand new CC text book was just released a few weeks ago, and the assignments are written using Design View. Can't follow along with the book. Just not cool.

[Herbert2001]

Then why not install and use the slightly older version to do the assignments? Books are often one version late.

[bradm44645584]

I agree, but normally the newest version does not have this dramatic of a change to it. So I get Katebarts irritation.

[Mark.Kirkeby]

I have read through this thread, and am just getting MAD now, I have read other threads with feed back from Adobe personnel   and there is a sideways answer to any issue that a end user has.

But I am posting to LOG my disappointment in the 2014.1 version, I have several sites that I used the fluid grid design , and one that I am currently working on and I just want to face palm with every action I attempt to do,

this is SLOW, CLUNKY and maddening, with a fair simple layout I was absolutely beside myself trying to figure out where my grids where and how to place stuff in them , I kept getting lost and bad formatted text, and I ended up screwing up a site that I had to go back to a backup copy. THIS SUCKS, All we all need is design new back, Live view is good for what it is , to inspect the Live output while designing, I use that as a tool , but having that forced into my primary workspace is JUST STUPID...

give back design view and we can all just move on. I understand giving wysiwyg formatting to newbies , that is great, but for most designers a combination of WYSIWYG, CODE , and Design view to control your workflow is a full set of tools , I now feel like I have been tasked with changing a tire with NO other tools than a cresant wrench..... If this stays , I will probably go back to  just using notepad like I did in the old days...

Remember Notepad, Save then open the html file in a browser, as it is right now this would be faster than trying to refresh Live view.

I understand that everyone uses DW in different ways and has different uses and that this change to specifically fluid grid designs does not effect alot of people except those of us that decided to follow the Adobe method...

In closing I am much less satisfied with my subscription now...I am not really patient as I have alot of web design backlog that I need to work on , and I had chosen that I would do most in Fluid Grids, yes I create simple designs that are simple to edit, and worked flawlessly before.

ok 'nuff said

Fix it , or I will move to something less superior to previous versions of DW

[Herbert2001]

I understand the frustration with the latest version - and I do think it is part of anyone's responsibility to be aware that new versions of the software one uses can potentially severely break one's workflow. Which means rolling back to a previous version, and waiting for the kinks to be ironed out.

I cannot count the times I installed the newest version of some software package, only to find out something was changed that broke my workflow in some manner. Either adjust, or roll back. (Or change direction, and start researching other alternatives 😉 )

Hopefully DW's Live View will become a great/improved version of the design view in an upcoming version.

[bradm44645584]

"Which means rolling back to a previous version, and waiting for the kinks to be ironed out."

There is always that, but frankly I am torn about rolling back wondering what choices that Adobe will make in this matter. The other problem is I can't think of another product out there that is as effective as DW with tools like Design view. The cloest thing I can think of is Visual Studio, but getting aclimated to that makes dealing with this required live view seem easy. So sucking it up and dealing with it may be the only option.

[Herbert2001]

True enough. Unfortunately things change all the time - we adapt and/or change ourselves, or we are left behind.

As far as I can tell, Adobe will dump the design view, I agree with you. When I look at the design views in Macaw and PineGrow, I see no reason why the Live View cannot be as flexible as the old design view - but there is no guarantee DW's development team will implement such a view or not. They should (and not take too long doing this), otherwise there will be a small/medium exodus of users (I think).

[bradm44645584]

" for most designers a combination of WYSIWYG, CODE , and Design view to control your workflow is a full set of tools"

I could not agree more. Quite frankly I have gotten upset by some of the posts by the staff giving 'sideways' answers. Also and who I call 'code snobs' who think that any tool they don't use should be removed, and that anyone who needs them is somehow inferior.

What I am deeply fearful of is when working with non responsive sites I got a pop up encouraging me to use live view rather then design view. So that tells me they are looking to dump design view outright. Given I have seen Adobe FAIL to follow up on issues with updates in the past.. I don't have a lot of confidence that this will be different.

I also wonder being a BC partner how other partners will react to this?  Will Adobe make the wrong choice and anger another revenue stream for themselves?

[Mark.Kirkeby]

I have thought about this alot since leaving my post here last night, I still stand by what I say.. every word,  but I am open to giving Adobe a bit more leeway than my narrow view of how DW should work.

I guess the shocking thing that I first found post upgrade was that when I opened a site to edit it that I could not see my layout-- I thought that my installation was broken. I searched all over looking for a place to turn design view back on , and could not find it.

So I did a full re-install, generally that is not such a huge thing except that I have a huge number of extensions that I have to reload as well, but before I started on re-installing extensions I checked and my Fluid Layout Design view was still broken~ this was the beginning of the slow burn to rage....

But after thinking about this here is the thing, I would be OK with design view going away, but the ability to toggle on fluid grid view,or toggle on some of the design view elements that are commonly used by a large cross section of users. I have learned to accept change being shoved down my throat , Microsoft does it with broken software all the time, but they loose large amounts of sales to it , and have seen an exodus of users to alternative system. If Adobe is unwilling to keep some of the features that us as end users are calling for, they may create a scenario such as that. I think that elements of the design view can be implemented that will make workflow better, and chjanges have to be instant and dynamic, not refresh and wait and see if you screwed something up.

So I have rolled back to CC the only version available in CC Manager, and will install my tools into that. I may just stick with this version,if that is the case a ala carte version of DW will work out much better than a CC version. Everyone that has posted frustration in this forum will have to decide how to move on in the future, if the big corporate "USE WHAT WE GIVE YOU AND LIKE IT" attitude is what we experience from Adobe, Then each of us will have to choose how we design in the future. Will you just use the current version and learn the methods to suffer through it, will you stick with a old version until they wont support it any longer,will you move to an alternative design software? These are the choices we are all faced with.

[AZ_PHX_Web_Developer]

I am always open for new features that said design view is a critical feature I use when I develop website.

The live view has delays and switching between code and live view is not smooth.

Adobe programmers please put back my design view because this is what separates DW from the rest of web developers tools out there!!!! Is ok to add new features but never remove the design view option ...

Sincerely,

Steven

[Nancy OShea]

Is ok to add new features but never remove the design view option ...

Never is an infinitely long time.  I would much prefer to see the currently feeble and outdated Design View replaced with something better.  Obviously, Live View in it's current state is not a viable replacement yet.  But it could be in the future.

Nancy O.

[AZ_PHX_Web_Developer]

Thank you for reply Nancy. I said never to show how much I value design view. The difference between live view and design view is speed and local versus remote which cannot be compared. And I don't have an issue with live view it is just easier for me to use while on the road where the live view becomes rather a delay in development. The solution would be to make it rather a choice that can be enabled or disabled in preferences. Don't just remove it and force users to use some new feature.. .. is like how windows 8 removed the start menu and decided to put it back in windows 10.

[Herbert2001]

Guys, Nancy has been advocating the need for an improved design view for many years - I can attest to that. She is being constructive. I myself would welcome a great live view that automatically updates any change in your html, css/sass/less, and js without the need for saving and refreshing.

My own experience as an instructor for web development also made me realize a long time ago that Dreamweaver's design view is completely unhelpful in a web course environment: it just does not render css the way it is supposed to be rendered as seen in any of the mainstream browsers. It uses its own proprietary render engine, while it should have switched to webkit a long, long time ago.

If DW was (is) used in the classroom, the first thing I and the other instructors would (will) tell the students was (is):

"Avoid the design view for anything else but quick content edits."

We would forbid the students to use it in any other way. Time and again some student would ignore our advice, and wind up with issues at some point. It is one of the reasons why DW was left behind as a code editor of choice in our class rooms (beside other reasons) a couple of years ago.

Again, looking at Pinegrow and Macaw, there is no reason why the Live view cannot become a super-duper alternative.

However, I am concerned with the fact that Adobe marketing and the DW engineers thought it was a good idea to release a not even half-baked beta implementation to their users, while removing legacy functional support. They are not making new friends with that approach, and potentially scaring away loyal users.

The CC subscription model seems to have made all its customers into a giant group of beta testers, without quick access to fixes - which I feel is a bit insane. Just my opinion.