Recovery of code

[Hosun]

Hi,

While copying and pasting, I lost many lines of code.

Is there any way to go back to the previous version?

Hosun Kang

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Is that by desire or ignorance? Its a short sighted approach for freelancers to spend 2/3 years building websites using a visual site creator, then the work dries up.  What skills have they aqcuired which will enable them to get another job easily and quickly or are these the very people I talk of who really have no passion from the outset, just looking to make a quick buck while it lasts, leave a trail of unpleasant code behind and move on to the next job, whatever that maybe.

By many it is desire, for others simply because they do not want to learn to code.

Very few people have a passion for web development, beyond earning a living and making it as easy as possible to do so.

It is no use arguing the case of making the code portable in web development, when 99% of sites will never ever go beyond the clients initial requirements. Yes, the design may be updated at some point, but thats it. Growing from a small 'here we/I are/am' buisness requirement is very rare, and I doubt if those building such initial sites could 'grow' the site into anything more if required to do so.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Is that by desire or ignorance? Its a short sighted approach for freelancers to spend 2/3 years building websites using a visual site creator, then the work dries up.  What skills have they aqcuired which will enable them to get another job easily and quickly or are these the very people I talk of who really have no passion from the outset, just looking to make a quick buck while it lasts, leave a trail of unpleasant code behind and move on to the next job, whatever that maybe.

By many it is desire, for others simply because they do not want to learn to code.

As I said its a blinkered approach and I'm not really concerned with those people. They will at some point drop out of the equation due to lack of skill/knowledge when workflows and opportunities dry up. They are not professional, we have to accept that, although I feel for any clients which are unfortunate enough to engage their services as they could find they have a website which is not extendable other than a complete re-write.

Very few people have a passion for web development, beyond earning a living and making it as easy as possible to do so.

I fear you are correct but that's just reflective of the times we live in. I try to look beyond that and encourage those that are willing to try and improve their abilities and knowledge.

pziecina  wrote

It is no use arguing the case of making the code portable in web development, when 99% of sites will never ever go beyond the clients initial requirements.

I disagree. Its not about going beyond the initial requirements (infact that might be easier to implement) its more about adding to what already exits. If the workflow used is unfamilar it could be a problem to find someone who is knowledgable in that respect or willing to spend the time needed adding even minor additions.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

pziecina   wrote

It is no use arguing the case of making the code portable in web development, when 99% of sites will never ever go beyond the clients initial requirements.

I disagree. Its not about going beyond the initial requirements (infact that might be easier to implement) its more about adding to what already exits. If the workflow used is unfamilar it could be a problem to find someone who is knowledgable in that respect or willing to spend the time needed adding even minor additions.

O/K, lets take a simple case.

(simple, but long to explain).

You have used vue.js to create a simple slide-in animated sub-menu. You then retire, and your client comes to me asking if I can change the menu from not just a slide-in animation, but to also do it from being 1px in height at the bottom of the page, to enlarging it to 100% height over 2.5 seconds.

(Unlikely senario, but you and I were the only developers within a 20 mile radius of the client at the time, and they want personal face to face contact).

Now I can do that using just css, but not vue.js. But I have no idea without going through all the code if or where you have used vue for anything else. Youmay have not, but I don't want to spend hours reading through the code, so I may decide to just leave your links and references to vue in the files. I then override your use of vue and use just css.

A few months latter, I retire. The next developer reads the code and has no idea what is going on, as although vue is referenced, it is not used, (but they are not 100% certain, so they leave the reference in). That developer does not know css animations, but does know jQuery, and so a complicated and needless code structure has begun, just because you used vue.js.

Is that 3rd developer creating a complicated and needless code structure, or is it your use of vue causing the problem, especially when it could have been done using css?

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

pziecina    wrote

It is no use arguing the case of making the code portable in web development, when 99% of sites will never ever go beyond the clients initial requirements.

I disagree. Its not about going beyond the initial requirements (infact that might be easier to implement) its more about adding to what already exits. If the workflow used is unfamilar it could be a problem to find someone who is knowledgable in that respect or willing to spend the time needed adding even minor additions.

O/K, lets take a simple case.

(simple, but long to explain).

You have used vue.js to create a simple slide-in animated sub-menu. You then retire, and your client comes to me asking if I can change the menu from not just a slide-in animation, but to also do it from being 1px in height at the bottom of the page, to enlarging it to 100% height over 2.5 seconds.

(Unlikely senario, but you and I were the only developers within a 20 mile radius of the client at the time, and they want personal face to face contact).

Now I can do that using just css, but not vue.js. But I have no idea without going through all the code if or where you have used vue for anything else. Youmay have not, but I don't want to spend hours reading through the code, so I may decide to just leave your links and references to vue in the files. I then override your use of vue and use just css.

A few months latter, I retire. The next developer reads the code and has no idea what is going on, as although vue is referenced, it is not used, (but they are not 100% certain, so they leave the reference in). That developer does not know css animations, but does know jQuery, and so a complicated and needless code structure has begun, just because you used vue.js.

Is that 3rd developer creating a complicated and needless code structure, or is it your use of vue causing the problem, especially when it could have been done using css?

Well thats a simple case of being dis-honest with your client and not informing them you don't know vue js/jquery etc. Effectively you are charging them a premium for work that does not really need to be re-written and are abusing their lack of knowledge. Why should they pay a premium for a small change by someone who knows vue js or jquery so you can implement a totally different approach? I mean we could all take that corrupt approach, re-write components everytime one lands on our doorstep at a premium cost to the client, is that ethical? Not in my books. I know it goes on but those people who practice such devious approaches are not professional in my way of thinking.

Plus you isolate a pretty simple usage case, in many instances additions need to work in tandem with what is already in place so its pretty difficult to tell if using a totally different approach merged with the current approach will work or not. Do you want to risk charging £50.00 for what seems a simple 1hr process whcih ends up at as a days work?

[pziecina]

How am I charging a premium, and abusing the clients lack of knowledge.

Surerly it is you using code that is not required, (vue) in the first place, just to do a simple animation that has caused the problem. I'm simply using what the w3c says to use, and not 3rd party code?

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

How am I charging a premium, and abusing the clients lack of knowledge.

Surerly it is you using code that is not required, (vue) in the first place, just to do a simple animation that has caused the problem. I'm simply using what the w3c says to use, and not 3rd party code?

This is fast become completely non-sensical. As a developer you would hope you start off with a recognised workflow be that php, css, asp, vue, react, angular, vanilla javascript, jquery, wordpress, bootstrap, to name but a few, one hopefully which has garnered a lot of use by developers worldwide, is open source, which generally means it becomes more widely spread, therefore making it popular within the industry, which in turn makes finding an exponent much simpler for a client should needs be.

If another developer then chooses to alter that popular workflow unnecessarily because of deception, lack of knowledege, dis-honesty I think the error lies squarely on the shoulders of that perpetrator.

I might explain to the client their website uses a workflow that I don't understand and for me to to update it will cost X, which is probably going to be more expensive than if they used another developer a few miles down the road who did understand the workflow. Maybe I just believe in  better customer relations, infact I do, as most will just see pound signs, probably wont even discuss it with the client, put in an estimate of £400 and hope to get the job. Just got to hope the client doesnt get a 2nd or 3rd quote and then wonders why you'rs is treble or quadruple the price, it could be bad for your own efforts in sourcing any more work if the client has good contacts

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  a écrit

This is fast become completely non-sensical. As a developer you would hope you start off with a recognised workflow be that php, css, asp, vue, react, angular, vanilla javascript, jquery, wordpress, bootstrap, to name but a few, one hopefully which has garnered a lot of use by developers worldwide, is open source, which generally means it becomes more widely spread, therefore making it popular within the industry, which in turn makes finding an exponent much simpler for a client should needs be.

Shouldn't we integrate sass and npm ?

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

osgood_   a écrit

This is fast become completely non-sensical. As a developer you would hope you start off with a recognised workflow be that php, css, asp, vue, react, angular, vanilla javascript, jquery, wordpress, bootstrap, to name but a few, one hopefully which has garnered a lot of use by developers worldwide, is open source, which generally means it becomes more widely spread, therefore making it popular within the industry, which in turn makes finding an exponent much simpler for a client should needs be.

Shouldn't we integrate sass and npm ?

Well I'd be an idiot not to accept they are popular workflow choices,  if that's what you are implying, one reason why I included bootstrap in the list, because I know what popular workflows are even though I disagree with some of them, many obviously have a hard grasp in identifying what a  popular workflows is.

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  a écrit

Well I'd be an idiot not to accept they are popular workflow choices,  if that's what you are implying, one reason why I included bootstrap in the list, because I know what popular workflows are even though I disagree with some of them, many obviously have a hard grasp in identifying what a  popular workflows is.

without looking for controversy, I opened the door to these tools to now copy the example indicated by Paula just beforehand... and this time let's imagine that the creation and deployment processes of the first developer are under NMP. (or vice versa)

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

osgood_   a écrit

Well I'd be an idiot not to accept they are popular workflow choices,  if that's what you are implying, one reason why I included bootstrap in the list, because I know what popular workflows are even though I disagree with some of them, many obviously have a hard grasp in identifying what a  popular workflows is.

without looking for controversy, I opened the door to these tools to now copy the example indicated by Paula just beforehand... and this time let's imagine that the creation and deployment processes of the first developer are under NMP. (or vice versa)

If the work landed on my doorstep I would not be able to offer a service because I know nothing about the workflow, just as someone who knows nothing about vue, as stated in Paulas example, or react, angular, etc should not get involved in a process which means the client is charged a premium unless of course it's discussed with the client and the client is happy for the code to be reformatted in the style accustom to what the developer uses as their workflow, be that node, jquery, css, bootstrap, php, phython, build tools, blah, blah, blah.....even App Connect if the client is feeling suicidal but the real question is does any 'non-developer' really discuss the merits and caveats of a workflow they use, they probably dont even give it time of day.

No-one but no-one has ever answered my question regarding Vue CLI. Once a Vue CLI website is deployed could you download the files directly from the ftp and reverse engineer the build js file to work locally or do you have to have direct access to the original production/build files...........try googling that, it returns no useful information at all. If what I think is true and you do need the production/build files then that's another unacceptable corrupt practice which locks a client into going back to the company that holds those files. I will not use CLI on account of it, I hope Im wrong.

[pziecina]

I've got it down to the point I am trying to make, (took me a while, but put it down to old age please ).

All these workflows, methods of coding, etc, etc, have at some point been just 'niche' workflows etc. Used by just a few thousand people, at some point they have become 'standard' in the developers toolbox, justified or not, (which would be a personal opinion). How did they get to be 'standard'. Was it just because programs like Dw, included them or was it because of VS Code having an extension for them that made them 'standards', (this also applies to vue, jQuery, and anything else one can think of).

At some point in a developers career, (if they are serious, which is looking like less and less likely) the use of any or all of those 'standards' may not be allowed, or even worse decline so far in usage that even mentioning them gets one a negative opinion.

Just like any profession, web development is evolving, and to concentrate or specialise in anything can, (probably will) result in a decline in work. As w3c standard html, css, ecma6, etc are all moving into the areas of what just a few years ago required frameworks and/or librarys to do.

Saying that something only has a few thousand users, is no longer relevant, even something with millions of users is no guarantee of a future. Even the type of workflow one uses, is evolving, and I have seen it become a more standardised workflow, comparable with a regulated ISO one when it comes to large enterprise sites/apps, which hopefully will at some point filter down to the smaller site/app creators.

Anyone for a ISO standards for web development discussion?

(BTW - ISO standards do apply to some web sites/apps anyway).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

I've got it down to the point I am trying to make, (took me a while, but put it down to old age please ).

All these workflows, methods of coding, etc, etc, have at some point been just 'niche' workflows etc. Used by just a few thousand people, at some point they have become 'standard' in the developers toolbox, justified or not, (which would be a personal opinion). How did they get to be 'standard'. Was it just because programs like Dw, included them or was it because of VS Code having an extension for them that made them 'standards', (this also applies to vue, jQuery, and anything else one can think of).

They got to be standard by being open source. Which meant they were well documented and more developers gravitated towards them causing a snowball effect. Interested developers can push the technology to the limit, share and discover, eventually making it, if deemed any good, a popular option. That's not expected to happen with a 'closed shop' approach, which is badly documented and has little resources. 

pziecina  wrote

At some point in a developers career, (if they are serious, which is looking like less and less likely) the use of any or all of those 'standards' may not be allowed, or even worse decline so far in usage that even mentioning them gets one a negative opinion.

Everything evolves and any developer that is serious attempts to keep up to date, those that are defeated by the non-stop learning process either gets out or falls prey to the click and drag approach if they want try and leverage a few more years before they eventually become dust. Its known as 'selling your soul to the devil'.

pziecina  wrote

Just like any profession, web development is evolving, and to concentrate or specialise in anything can, (probably will) result in a decline in work. As w3c standard html, css, ecma6, etc are all moving into the areas of what just a few years ago required frameworks and/or librarys to do.

Saying that something only has a few thousand users, is no longer relevant, even something with millions of users is no guarantee of a future. Even the type of workflow one uses, is evolving, and I have seen it become a more standardised workflow, comparable with a regulated ISO one when it comes to large enterprise sites/apps, which hopefully will at some point filter down to the smaller site/app creators.

I actually think the opposite. You have to attempt to specailise in something, an area of web-development possibly, not necessarily a workflow, because its now absolutely impossible to know everything.

My philosophy is stick with the crowd, they can't all be wrong and learn the most popular current workflows,

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

My philosophy is stick with the crowd, they can't all be wrong and learn the most popular current workflows,

I'm still looking for a job like the one for the NHS years ago. The one where the government invested £10 billion in the production of a standardised app that would connect everyone in the NHS via the internet, and the director, (a nurse) was paid over £7 million just because she had built her own website.

That would be the crowd to go with.

I can dream, can't I .

Just for those who do not know - The entire project was scrapped.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

My philosophy is stick with the crowd, they can't all be wrong and learn the most popular current workflows,

I'm still looking for a job like the one for the NHS years ago. The one where the government invested £10 billion in the production of a standardised app that would connect everyone in the NHS via the internet, and the director, (a nurse) was paid over £7 million just because she had built her own website.

That would be the crowd to go with.

I can dream, can't I .

Just for those who do not know - The entire project was scrapped.

Crazy money when it comes directly out of the public purse. Thankfully on this ocassion someone had the sense to scrap it, maybe HS2 will get scrapped, personally I dont want to get to Birmingham any faster, thankyou

[pziecina]

Os,

Don't know if you are aware but Panic are due to announce their new code editor, (I think the previous one was years old 'Coda' or something like that).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Os,

Don't know if you are aware but Panic are due to announce their new code editor, (I think the previous one was years old 'Coda' or something like that).

Yes, I'm up on that one. Been waiting for years. They keep saying its coming later this year but no official date. Im not hopefully if Im honest but might be pleasantly surprised if it ever gets released. The problem is Panic's heart I feel is really no longer in producing apps for web-development, its more in producing games and games machines. They took their eye off the ball and let Coda users slip from their grasp simply because not much has happened in recent years. Its difficult to compete against the FREE opposition and they rely on income to survive. Good luck to them. I think they will have enough interest to make a decent return out of it, if/when it happens. But as I said I don't think there will be any major break throughs. All I can say is it wont be Coda 3, that name has been dropped, 1. on account of another comapny using it, they have come to an agreement and 2. they say the new editor is too far removed from the old one so it warrants a new name, new start.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

This is fast become completely non-sensical. As a developer you would hope you start off with a recognised workflow be that php, css, asp, vue, react, angular, vanilla javascript, jquery, wordpress, bootstrap, to name but a few, one hopefully which has garnered a lot of use by developers worldwide, is open source, which generally means it becomes more widely spread, therefore making it popular within the industry, which in turn makes finding an exponent much simpler for a client should needs be.

That's the problem, even though I agree that many frameworks and other librarys are used by developers. I do not agree with them being used just because the developer thinks they are a 'quick and easy' method. I cannot see any difference between wordpress, angular, bootstrap for site creation and site builders like wix, etc. As they all try to hide the exessive code used, behind an 'ease of use' claim.

The same also applies for me when it comes to behaviours or 'effects' (be that animations or simple roll overs). A recognised workflow for code, should only be html, css, js and the server side requirements. With the all of them, including server-side being limited to 'what is required' not a 'throw it all in' approach.

The argument that all users have fast, unmetered internet connections, may be true for many, but not all. So downloading frameworks or whatever should I think, still be the exception but has become the rule for many.

Even the 'it is cached by the browser' justification, is no longer true for the majority. As mobile devices once again are going back to the 4Mb total for the all sites cache limit  (It did go up to 8Mb, but some had only 2Mb).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

That's the problem, even though I agree that many frameworks and other librarys are used by developers. I do not agree with them being used just because the developer thinks they are a 'quick and easy' method. I cannot see any difference between wordpress, angular, bootstrap for site creation and site builders like wix, etc. As they all try to hide the exessive code used, behind an 'ease of use' claim.

We seem to have gone from being open and honest to discussing the merits of using a popular frameworks. I guess the difference in the case of angular, you do have to know how to code to use it, so that sets it apart from your automated build processes.

pziecina  wrote

The same also applies for me when it comes to behaviours or 'effects' (be that animations or simple roll overs). A recognised workflow for code, should only be html, css, js and the server side requirements. With the all of them, including server-side being limited to 'what is required' not a 'throw it all in' approach.

Yes its obviously better to use vanilla wokflows in my opinion but ignoring the fact that frameworks are used extensively is just burying ones head in the sand. My argument is at least you will find a zillion developers more than capable of deploying them and working with them as oppossed to some minority workflow. I wont mention names again because I dont want to keep bashing stuff which obviously serves a purpose for specific use cases.

pziecina  wrote

The argument that all users have fast, unmetered internet connections, may be true for many, but not all. So downloading frameworks or whatever should I think, still be the exception but has become the rule for many.

Even the 'it is cached by the browser' justification, is no longer true for the majority. As mobile devices once again are going back to the 4Mb total for the all sites cache limit  (It did go up to 8Mb, but some had only 2Mb).

Yes, that concerns me greatly if you have ever observed the many linked js/css files these days. Usually in an automated process they are extremely bloated on account of having to provide options for everything rather than if you write bespoke functions which only use what is necessary. I have no idea about download speeds, I'm no expert on that.

[B i r n o u]

pziecina  a écrit

I cannot see any difference between wordpress, angular, bootstrap for site creation and site builders like wix, etc. As they all try to hide the exessive code used, behind an 'ease of use' claim.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I would add that unlike the other libraries or frameworks you're quoting, wordpress is still more advanced.

for an experienced user who knows the architecture of the tool well, this is a real development framework that allows you to reuse a whole set of classes and have fun at the application level.

[B i r n o u]

sorry I have to go, tomorrow I should wake up at 5 and it's already 2