'Typical'

[osgood_]

The only thing that is 'typical' is you locking a thread anytime you dont like what's been said.

[ALsp]

I don't like being bamboozled. It was not I that ruined this thread. And are you threatening me, again? Like I said before, getting me driven from this forum is meaningless to me if it means putting up with childish pranks. And if you think this is not civilized (I do believe you meant to say civil) then there is a larger problem than I thought. As I've offered to Nancy, I am perfectly willing to hash this out by telephone - my dime.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

Now it is so much easier to get a reasonable looking page using Bootstrap, a page that hungers for re-styling. That is where the learning starts.

Beginners learning Bootstrap is a kin to getting your dad to teach you to drive. You pick up all the poor driving skills and habits he has collected over the years and then it become hard to get rid of the bad habits as you can 'drive', albeit very badly and really have no great desire to change anything.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Is it Adobes fault for giving up on fluid grid  - I mean it proved to be crap but did they just throw in the towel too quickly and bung in a hugely complicated solution just to save face which wasnt really suited to their demo-graphic user.

To change the arguments. Fluid grids was an idea created in desperation in order for Dw to have some form of rwd layout system. Unfortunatly the web, (css in particular) had already started to come up with much better solutions, which have been adopted by many, (even bootstrap). The problem was that most if not all solutions at the time of FGL's, the developers had no idea how to use it, (just as well, please read on).

Everyone probably has guessed that I am talking about flexbox. Flexbox was a brilliant idea, but to get multi-line to work, (the original property that became row wrap) it required a completely invalid method, which only worked on Android. That method was to use the same css id in every section, not ideal I think everyone would agree, and it was not until IE9, (the very first dev preview) that I could see the real potential, unfortunatly it was removed from IE9 but resurfaced with new syntax in IE10, after which every browser started to update their support, (along with changing the syntax yet again).

Had FGL's used flexbox in its original version chaos would have been the result, as anything using the original flexbox properties would have had to be updated to the new, (current) syntax. Which could have been overcome to some degree by creating fallback code using floats, (a requirerment at the time for older IE anyway).

The moral is however, that the rush to create a rwd solution has led to not just many false starts, but lots of bad solutions. Maybe we are seeing this repeated with the Dw managments reluctance to not just include a visual method of using flexbox but css grids also. Add to that the difficulty of adding starter pages to Dw, to help users in using flexbox and grids, and I am not surprised at Dw users, (and many other none Dw users) turning to frameworks such as bootstrap.

Even if I wanted to help Dw users get started, the obstacles created by Dw, would force me to create a starter page and tutorial that could be used by anyone with a code editor.

I would say that whilst we are talking about people using bootstrap to get started, is not bootstraps fault, but Dw's as there is no way to ease anyone into coding in Dw anymore.

[W_J_T]

Dreamweaver seems to have many historical faults and failures, with many glaringly absent features and obvious inadequacies still residing in the present, all culminating in no real assurance to users that either will be rectified heading into the foreseeable future.

[pziecina]

W_J_T  wrote

Dreamweaver seems to have many historical faults and failures, with many glaringly absent features and obvious inadequacies still residing in the present, all culminating in no real assurance to users that either will be rectified heading into the foreseeable future.

The problem is, (and I think Ben and Birnou will agree) that the Dw tem/managment has their own agenda, add to the fact that many of the Dw CAB members, (the ones that should represent users to the Dw team/managment) do not and never have built web sites for a living.

I know of a few that do not even know how to code, and some that do not for anything newer than IE9.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

the Dw tem/managment has their own agenda,

Playing too much golf while they should be busy sorting the 'baby' out.

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

The problem is,

So does the inherent forum problem (amongst users) largely default back to the various inadequacies and failures of Dreamweaver and its developers? Leaving users and participants frustrated, disenchanted, disgruntled and isolated in wanting. Culminating in creating and breeding the toxic environment that is seen in this thread and throughout this forum. To a large degree it would appear to be yes, but the underlying issue seems more basic than that, dwindling down into the foundations of human nature itself.

[pziecina]

Human nature has a lot to do with it, but the basic, (or earliest) start to the problems was the lack of new real features in Dw.

It is imposible to show anyone something that does not exist, and in Dw too many html, css, js and server side/database features are missing. Some are supported in code view, but there is no easy way to start users off in anything but bootstrap, except to say 'go and learn the basics', which lets be honest, helps no one.

[osgood_]

W_J_T  wrote

pziecina   wrote

The problem is,

So does the inherent forum problem (amongst users) largely default back to the various inadequacies and failures of Dreamweaver and its developers? Leaving users and participants frustrated, disenchanted, disgruntled and isolated in wanting. Culminating in creating and breeding the toxic environment that is seen in this thread and throughout this forum. To a large degree it would appear to be yes, but the underlying issue seems more basic than that, dwindling down into the foundations of human nature itself.

Nope, its simple - some are more passionate than others about what they do. There are a lot of 'insignificant' part-time players in this industry that come from different walks of life and to them its 'just  another job' - F**K up and well move on types - leaving a trail of crap behind them for someone else to shovel up. There are those such a Al who has invested significant/huge amounts of time in learning the craft yet seemingly facing armageddon, as cheap and cheerful solutions are sort and provided -  so yeah its inevitable its going to lead to frustration for those people that see it as more than 'just another job'

I don't condone any 'bad' behaviour but there are also trolls that are just here to wind people up, some believe you are one of those. That doesnt help to calm the waters either.

[pziecina]

I just put all that down to human nature Os, which covers a multitude of reasons.

I also look at everything from what I would require if I was looking for someone to hire, (as an employe, or to just develop a site).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

I just put all that down to human nature Os, which covers a multitude of reasons.

Human nature, yeah just lucky I don't have access to a gun.....Id be seriously dangerous

[BenPleysier]

Don't do as I do, do as I say

[osgood_]

Not sure why youre bringing that up at this late stage Ben. It was done for a specific reason, out of protest. Have you been celebrating too much.?

I still bet contributors have been marking their own posts as helpful since the discusion took place, although l have not been monitoring it. But you wont find a single post of mine that l have self marked as being helpful

This forum just gets more bizarre, entertaining though.

[ALsp]

This forum just gets more bizarre, entertaining though.

It's kind of like One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest and crash-landed. Special needs should never be taken lightly, though.

[osgood_]

Best laugh of the evening for me Al. Im begining to feel the need to put on a white coat in this environment

[BenPleysier]

osgood_  wrote

Not sure why youre bringing that up at this late stage Ben. It was done for a specific reason, out of protest. Have you been celebrating too much.?

I still bet contributors have been marking their own posts as helpful since the discusion took place, although l have not been monitoring it. But you wont find a single post of mine that l have self marked as being helpful

This forum just gets more bizarre, entertaining though.

The subject came up in my inbox as a recent activity. I did not realise that it was one from the past. I thought it was funny enough to put forward, but apparently you missed the intent. Please have a few more and re-read the reply.

In case I was too subtle, please except my excuses. Have a good year.

[osgood_]

Im just going to make allowances this evening for too much alcoholic intake, not on my account though, far too much funny stuff going on across the board to be taken seriously

[W_J_T]

Speaking in more general terms, this thread itself (like many) turned into the general microcosm of this forum and in some ways the industry at large. Isn’t it rather ironic that historically the actual web medium is vastly tolerant in so many ways. Yet many of the people themselves whom participate within the industry are by contrast predominantly intolerant and fiercely divided about so many things amongst each other?

This forum and in many ways the industry, there presides a constant and needless flame war about everything comparatively. Yet the underlying infrastructure of the web still remains in waiting, allowing a vast number of varying approaches to work and coexist predominantly unbiased for the vast multitude of peoples. This has been widely true since its inception, regardless of any justifications amongst all the infighting and debates about every topical matter since the advent of the internet.

Go forth people, participate in peace, the web and its abundance of opportunities are waiting.

[pziecina]

To answer your points.

It's a question of style.

Whilst the web may seem open, it is fast reaching breaking point with too many web sites being created every day, and not enough capacity on the network itself. How we percieve and use the web individually, is becomming a question of how much you can afford, and where you live.

Over 99% of sites uploaded each day, are ghost sites within the year.

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

To answer your points.

Thats more of a indirect tangent, than any type of answer to that which was presented, but none the less well received just the same.

[pziecina]

Actually it was an answer to each point you made.

Your first paragraph was about web design and developers being intolerant. To which I replied, 'it's a question of style'. The meaning so as to not start any more disagreements, was that everone has their own way of working, and each of us think ours is the best.

The second part was about the underlying infrastructure of the web, which the W3C has created a working group for. Mainly because the internets capacity for transfering data, is getting very close to 100%, so something must be done about it. As laying cables and improving the infrastructure in general takes time, other ways to speed up the transfer of data has to be found.

The third part was just to say to many of those thinking about a web site, be carefull, the expected advantages are no longer as great as most think.

[W_J_T]

Yes Paula I understood your point the first time, however its still a tangent, just now stated in more detail. You're trying to provide an answer to a question that was never asked. :--)

[ALsp]

This forum and in many ways the industry, there presides a constant and needless flame war about everything comparatively. Yet the underlying infrastructure of the web still remains in waiting, allowing a vast number of varying approaches to work and coexist predominantly unbiased for the vast multitude of peoples.

Well stated, but there are always fundamentals in every endeavor. I think the issues on this particular forum go beyond intolerance. For instance, I'm not going to begrudge an accomplished coder making an informed choice to use Bootstrap (or any other framework). The problem I see is that the typical Dreamweaver user, whom I believe to be in many (if not most) cases to be a non-coder, or a coding novice, is not prepared to make a decision like that, and is being led to believe that he is simply making a new page in Dreamweaver which happens to be a Bootstrap page. It's more a matter of choice that is taken away as their are no alternatives. This forum tends, in my experience, to reinforce the notion that Bootstrap and Dreamweaver are synonymous. I probably shouldn't let it frustrate me so, but I'm working on it, because I probably cannot cause a change in this community if users see me constantly bickering. Yeah, I'm working on that

[W_J_T]

Honestly aside from various regulars, this forum seems pretty dead in my opinion, compared to most Adobe forums. So are people finding assistance elsewhere for their web related needs and questions, or just choosing to avoid taking part here due to the regulars and the atmosphere of bickering and intolerance? I would hope not concerning the latter, maybe since its web tech people are simply searching about, learning and growing on their own, otherwise its somewhat befuddling.

ALsp  wrote

It's more a matter of choice that is taken away as their are no alternatives. This forum tends, in my experience, to reinforce the notion that Bootstrap and Dreamweaver are synonymous. I probably shouldn't let it frustrate me so, but I'm working on it, because I probably cannot cause a change in this community if users see me constantly bickering. Yeah, I'm working on that .

I think Adobe themselves is leading the charge making that correlation synonymous. The forum and its users are like the Moon reflecting the Sun, due to Dreamweaver's self inherent flaws and feature inadequacies. The "What’s Coming to Dreamweaver in 2019?" post was certainly not a ray of light towards the future ushering in the needed changes. I'm sure you are double frustrated in certain various ways, being a 3rd party extension developer relying on this product and company to a certain degree. Maybe making that token Bootstrap extension you hinted at would somehow bridge the gap in some way for you and users alike? :--) Or maybe your frustrations would be heightened further. All any of us can do is try diligently to be and do better.

[ALsp]

Please get your facts right. I do not have any (financial) interest to promote any product, unlike. I am happy to talk about both products in the same manner that I would talk about other products that I am happy with.

There is nothing to be defensive about. It is your right to favor and subtly promote DMX Zone and Wappler. And they do heavily favor Bootstrap and jQuery over home-grown coding, so it is a good fit. I didn't bring it up in a negative light. It is what it is, it is within your rights, and there is nothing inherently bad about doing it. For years, Murray Summers, the most prolific poster in the history of Dreamweaver's forum, promoted our products. He was a beta tester and a friend for years, and he truly did believe in our tools. Nothing wrong with that at all.