'Typical'

[osgood_]

The only thing that is 'typical' is you locking a thread anytime you dont like what's been said.

[ALsp]

Uh, Ben... the Wappler forum is down the street and I'm sure it's a wonderful place, but the totals I got are from Dreamweaver and I already told you I think you are overreaching - for what reason, I have no idea. Don't ruin what has been a rational, reasonable, and very nice discussion.

[BenPleysier]

Whoops! How careless of me. Here is the result in the latest version (11193 Build) of Dreamweaver. You are right once again, the grand total is 277 KB. We seem to be getting further and further away from your > 1 MB

[ALsp]

Maybe you think that pointing out a math error in calculating the size of Bootstrap/jQuery assets (which varies from version to version of each of those libraries, as well as by Dreamweaver versions, and as well if you consider compressed versus uncompressed) that you have won a prize or an argument or whatever it is you want to do... I already answered you, as well as suggesting that the issue is irrelevant to this discussion (which has, until recently, been quite reasonable and informative), so do yourself a favor and go have a beer and relax. You're not showing your best side

[BenPleysier]

I do not plan to be a winner. That would only make you a loser and I think you are worth much more than that.

I'll make one promise. Each time you bag Bootstrap from now on, I'll be retaliating.

Edit: Have a look at the civilised way that this forum discusses the subject https://www.freecodecamp.org/forum/t/is-it-considered-bad-practice-lazy-to-use-bootstrap/141243

[osgood_]

138mb! The total of all of my css files is usually much less than 40% of that. Anyway my arguement against using Bootstrap has never been about file size, more so the poor and obtuse/bloated html/css it creates, that's one argument you can't win

[pziecina]

BenPleysier  wrote

Each time you bag Bootstrap from now on, I'll be retaliating.

I do not mind you retaliating Ben, but I would like to see a positive discussion in which the benefits and drawbacks of bootstrap, (maybe foundation also) are debated when compared to Dw extensions and self coding, (and the drawbacks of extensions and self coding).

I think we can all agree that any method has both positive and negative aspects. It should not be a simple Dw supports it, as Dw also supports many other frameworks, and methods if the end user can be told how.

[BenPleysier]

Thank you for your advice, I hope that my first attempt meets your approval Re: Fixing this almost-perfect animated collapsible sidebar navigation menu by W3S . Stronger will follow if we are pestered any longer.

[pziecina]

Thank you for the link in the other discussion Ben, which probably sums up how I think.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

It should not be a simple Dw supports it, as Dw also supports many other frameworks, and methods if the end user can be told how.

I'm not sure if some/many users can copy and paste. You'd think its simple enough to hook up a cnd link to any framework and go out to their website and copy the component examples and paste into DW wouldnt you?

After all that is what Bootstrap is in DW, a selection of snippets, which anyone can make for any framework if they wanted to. Perhaps the coding environment is just too daunting to even contemplate opening it for some but seriously its far easier than trying to insert everything via a visual tool in my opinion IF users could overcome their instant fear of the coding environment.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

After all that is what Bootstrap is in DW, a selection of snippets, which anyone can make for any framework if they wanted to. Perhaps the coding environment is just too daunting to even contemplate opening it for some but seriously its far easier than trying to insert everything via a visual tool in my opinion IF users could overcome their instant fear of the coding environment.

I think most coding environments now have gone over the top in features, (most of which I turn off).

If someone learning was to follow all the various 'best advice to use' features of modern code editors, they would probably spend 50% of their time trying to work out how to use the features, another 40% trying to work out what html/css to use, 5% deciding between css and js and only 5% actually coding.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

If someone learning was to follow all the various 'best advice to use' features of modern code editors, they would probably spend 50% of their time trying to work out how to use the features, another 40% trying to work out what html/css to use, 5% deciding between css and js and only 5% actually coding.

That's most essentially part of the issue, everything is moving too fast, has become too complex and mostly over-engineered! Too many options can never be good as it leads to confusion and then disallusionment. I dont think I could personally cope with it all if I was starting out a fresh today as I wouldn't know where to even begin.

I'd become an ice-cream sales person instead

[ALsp]

BenPleysier  wrote

I do not plan to be a winner. That would only make you a loser and I think you are worth much more than that.

I'll make one promise. Each time you bag Bootstrap from now on, I'll be retaliating.

Edit: Have a look at the civilised way that this forum discusses the subject https://www.freecodecamp.org/forum/t/is-it-considered-bad-practice-lazy-to-use-bootstrap/1 41243

First of all, threatening to retaliate against me is not very nice... or professional. Accepting that my right to an opinion is as valid as yours (I'm being generous) is more acceptable. As for pointing to a forum discussion of Bootstrap, this is a matter of preaching to a choir. This particular forum contains a group of ACPs and frequent posters (some former ACPs) that have a much wider and richer experience base. I can be very civilized, Ben. You need to drop the curtain a bit and allow that not everyone (not nearly everyone) believes in Bootstrap as you do. Or are you simply trying to tell me in an indirect way that someone who does not like Bootstrap is not welcome around here? Are you really that narrowminded? Or is there something else you are not saying?

Question:

I do not like Bootstrap. I think I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to coding. Given that, is there any way you can think of to respect my right to dislike Bootstrap that would be acceptable to you?

[Nancy OShea]

ALsp  wrote

Question:

I do not like Bootstrap. I think I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to coding. Given that, is there any way you can think of to respect my right to dislike Bootstrap that would be acceptable to you?

I wish you would stop trying to play the innocent victim, Al.  It's beneath you.  You're not exactly a Pollyanna.   And nobody here has ever said your personal views on Bootstrap make you unwelcome.  You made that up in your head.   It never happened.  

What's not welcome here or in any Adobe forum are snarky, cleverly disguised personal insults.  Every time Bootstrap is mentioned and even when it isn't, you rear your ugly teeth and growl like an angry attack dog.  It's uncalled for.  It serves no purpose except to create an atmosphere of hostility and rancor. You claim to be a friend to Dreamwaver.  Well with friends like you, who needs enemies? 

It would be no different than me going to Project Seven forums and insulting you, your product and your customers for using that product.  Don't you see how vitriol just breeds more vitriol?

If you  lack sufficient impulse control to stop the belligerent, pseudo-intellectual bullying, I fear you will be facing another forum suspension.  And if it happens,  don't ask me for help.  Although after 3 times in the penalty box, I don't know if you get a 4th chance to come back.  C'est la vie

[ALsp]

Your post has been reported as abusive.

[ALsp]

It would be no different than me going to Project Seven forums and insulting you, your product and your customers for using that product.  Don't you see how vitriol just breeds more vitriol?

You are welcome to post on our forums anytime. There is no vitriol in this discussion on my part. I consider Bootstrap bad. That's it. I have that right. You can then sit there and chastise me because my opinion is not the same as yours, and Ben can threaten retribution? Is that how it works here? Tell you what, get whoever is in charge of this forum, along with you and me, on the phone and let's see if we can come up with a reasonable and intelligent solution for our differences.

As it appears to me, this topic was extremely productive and reasonable - until Ben threatened retribution and you got personal.

Consider it a challenge. If Adobe wants me gone for that, I don't want to be here.

And I would urge Adobe to not lock this thread, as it would be nice to see who can extricate themselves from this battle with the most grace.

[BenPleysier]

ALsp  wrote

I do not like Bootstrap. I think I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to coding.

Nobody will dispute that.

The problem as I see it, you will jump on every opportunity to have your say regarding Bootstrap. What you do not realise is that there are al lot of novices out there who want to start off in web design using Dreamweaver. Often the novice will want to start creating a page, but they have no idea of what a markup language is, let alone style rules or a scripting language.

In Dreamweaver, they create a new page and under Bootstrap components, they insert a Navbar, a container and a Grid Row with column. Then open the HTML tab and insert a heading and a paragraph, The start of a web document without coding.

Now come the problems. How do I get rid of the form elements from the Navbar, how do I give the Navbar another colour, I want 3 columns and I only have one. This is where the learning starts. This is where they are confronted with HTML and CSS. That is when they come to this forum. It is Dreamweaver that they are using and Bootstrap is part of that. Along comes Al and tells the person that he hates Bootstrap and that the questioner should be hand coding instead of using rubbish. Along comes Ben and says the complete opposite. Ben and Al have a verbal altercation and the questioner leaves in disgust.

The problem with you, Al, is that you are very much advanced in your thinking and with your coding skills. You are 10 (maybe more) grades above the novice level, but you have not shown a capacity to lower yourself to their level.

Why not let them learn Bootstrap, why not let them make mistakes, why not let them decide for themselves to quit using Bootstrap for more advanced practices. After all, we have all been there and done that.

To end this sermon, the other day I was following a student with high distinction in graphic design and a degree in computing. In my curiosity to see his works, I went to his website only to find that it had been created by WIX. One of my customers has been conned into receiving paying for advice on SEO and marketing techniques. I have been given a list of changes to be made to the website, some of which are valid. Thought I'd go to their website, WIX.

I'd hate to think that we are sending Dreamweavers to the likes of WIX due to our mutual quarrels.

[ALsp]

The problem with you, Al, is that you are very much advanced in your thinking and with your coding skills. You are 10 (maybe more) grades above the novice level, but you have not shown a capacity to lower yourself to their level.

I actually have been doing just that for about 23 years It's kind of what we do with our extensions.

Why not let them learn Bootstrap, why not let them make mistakes, why not let them decide for themselves to quit using Bootstrap for more advanced practices. After all, we have all been there and done that.

Aside from my dislike for Bootstrap in general, my problem with Bootstrap inside Dreamweaver is more to do with the fact that there is no visual UI to manage layouts. For that I cite our Harmony tool as an example for comparative purposes. If Dreamweaver had such a frontend for Bootstrap, then every single point you just made would be far more valid. But this is not the case. When the novice chooses a Bootstrap layout and comes here because he needs to change things up, the solutions involve manual coding and exception CSS. When the CSS and coding skills necessary to do this well are achieved, the user is at a point where he doesn't really need Bootstrap anymore - or Dreamweaver for that matter.

Can you not see that? Isn't that why you are using Wappler? I'm sure Wappler has some sort of management UI where you can add, remove, re-option or reorder columns, no?

[BenPleysier]

In the latest version of Dreamweaver, Live view is sort of getting there. Still needs a lot of attention to make it to the level of that other program.

But that is not due to Bootstrap, it is due to the poor management of Dreamweaver over the past decade. That is where you should be spending your energy.

Harmony is a great tool, even then an astute person could find fault. It will do no good when we start arguing amongst ourselves, it is not profession. I love seeing replies directed at the OP, I hate seeing replies directed at amongst ourselves, either as comments or as criticisms.

[osgood_]

ALsp  wrote

Isn't that why you are using Wappler? I'm sure Wappler has some sort of management UI where you can add, remove, re-option or reorder columns, no?

I've actually wondered why Wap is using Bootstrap to be honest because it has its own components. The only component its short of is a menu system I think so that makes 99% of Bootstrap redundant - its only the grid and nav the Wap people use......humm.

[BenPleysier]

osgood_  wrote

I've actually wondered why Wap is using Bootstrap to be honest because it has its own components. The only component its short of is a menu system I think so that makes 99% of Bootstrap redundant - its only the grid and nav the Wap people use......humm.

. Time will tell all.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

ALsp   wrote

I do not like Bootstrap. I think I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to coding.

Now come the problems. How do I get rid of the form elements from the Navbar, how do I give the Navbar another colour, I want 3 columns and I only have one. This is where the learning starts. This is where they are confronted with HTML and CSS. That is when they come to this forum. It is Dreamweaver that they are using and Bootstrap is part of that. Along comes Al and tells the person that he hates Bootstrap and that the questioner should be hand coding instead of using rubbish. Along comes Ben and says the complete opposite. Ben and Al have a verbal altercation and the questioner leaves in disgust.

Problem is Ben Bootstrap in my opinion is NOT the best place to start learning. It's the most difficult because Bootstrap, unless you have a really really good understanding of css and deconstruction its a real beast. Beginners need a hugely simple uncomplex baby steps framework. I know everyone tries and wants to run before they can walk but seriously I cant consider Bootstrap for a beginner. Then again I dont know what to recomend because most often the novice is not willing to go into code view, they arent usually committed to buying a much simpler extension like Harmony from PVII

Is it Adobes fault for giving up on fluid grid  - I mean it proved to be crap but did they just throw in the towel too quickly and bung in a hugely complicated solution just to save face which wasnt really suited to their demo-graphic user.

[ALsp]

Is it Adobes fault for giving up on fluid grid  - I mean it proved to be crap but did they just throw in the towel too quickly and bung in a hugely complicated solution just to save face which wasn't really suited to their demo-graphic user.

They had a semblance of automation with Fluid Grids. They should have learned from that. Instead, I think they either felt obligated to, or perhaps were directed to, include a page layout mechanism. Optimally, they could have written their own simple framework, using floats or Flexbox and built a Harmony-like UI. But they didn't and oh boy did you hit the nail on the head about Bootstrap being the worst place for a non-coder to go if he is seeking to learn CSS. There could have been, should have been, a much better solution.

[BenPleysier]

No arguments, Bootstrap is a beast.

Is it a good learning tool? Wel, it is great for prototyping, you should try it. As far as learning is concerned, going back to my starting days in web development (can't call it design because of my lack of ability), I so wanted a page to see the results. No Bootstrap, no jQuery, in fact no CSS. My first page was horrible and that is where my learning started.

Now it is so much easier to get a reasonable looking page using Bootstrap, a page that hungers for re-styling. That is where the learning starts.

I was so glad that FGL was dropped, and with Adobe;s history (ADDT, Spry and SB), I was a proponent of Bootstrap (even more of Foundation) and actively said so in the pre-release stage. Finally an addition that did not require an input from Adobe.

Should Adobe have had an improved version of FGL? I think restoring SB would be of much more importance.

[ALsp]

This is close to stalking Nancy. If you are baiting me to go off on you, give it up. It is not worth the effort and this is getting a little childish.  Dreamweaver's page-layout "tools" have always been bad. It doesn't matter what the codebase is. But if it makes you feel good to invoke a moderator to muzzle my voice (or if you're doing it yourself) than I hope you get some satisfaction out of it.

[BenPleysier]

But if it makes you feel good to invoke a moderator to muzzle my voice (or if you're doing it yourself) than I hope you get some satisfaction out of it.

I do not get any satisfaction out of 'muzzling' anybody. I get my satisfaction when everybody behaves in a civilised manner.

This is getting close.

Talk about muzzling, what was your action earlier on??? I saw it in the moderation queue. Something like the pot calling the kettle black?