Your contributions are invaluable, thank you!

[Preran]

To all the contributors on this forum,

On behalf of the thousands of users that visit this forum every month, a heartfelt Thank You!

You, and your expertise keep this forum going. Thank you for some very interesting discussions this year, and for keeping us on our toes. We do understand that you have the user's best interests at heart. You have been customer advocates even before that term became fashionable.

A special round of applause and thank you to all those that took time to visit the Muse forum post the EOL announcement and provide users with the much-needed guidance they were looking for.

On behalf of people that have not apologized after stepping out of line during their interactions with you, I offer you mine. It is beyond the comprehension of some people to believe in your altruism, and in a world driven by motives, that is probably a given.

To those that are celebrating Thanksgiving tomorrow, I hope that you find joy, peace, and happiness in whatever you have planned for the day, and after. I look forward to your continued presence after you are done with the merriment.

Cheers,

Preran

[osgood_]

I dont think there is much wrong with cdn or jquery delivery. Its how you use them or not.If you just use jquery plugins without investigating how they work or how you can interact with them to change things up or even use as a base to write your own code its probaby bad, the same can be said for too many links to cdns or extensions/plugins for that matter, all help to bloat the page load. Just look at the thread yesterday which caused a spat, the amount of links to varies plugins, jquery ui wasnt even needed to produce an accordion as they already hsd a link to the jquery libary, more than efficient. Its ignorance which breeds poor and inefficient workflows.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Just look at the thread yesterday which caused a spat, the amount of links to varies plugins, jquery ui wasnt even needed to produce an accordion as they already hsd a link to the jquery libary, more than efficient. Its ignorance which breeds poor and inefficient workflows.

I have almost given up posting code now, as there are very few posts that I can see where users even want modern solutions. I find it amazing that people will say css only versions do not cover every users requirerments, (true, but!) then proceed to recommend a bootstrap 4 solution, and accept a bootstrap 4 solution which only works in IE10+.

The accordion and many other components can now be done using css, with just a little js used to enhance functionality, and they will work in IE10+.

[BenPleysier]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Just look at the thread yesterday which caused a spat, the amount of links to varies plugins, jquery ui wasnt even needed to produce an accordion as they already hsd a link to the jquery libary, more than efficient. Its ignorance which breeds poor and inefficient workflows.

I have almost given up posting code now, as there are very few posts that I can see where users even want modern solutions. I find it amazing that people will say css only versions do not cover every users requirerments, (true, but!) then proceed to recommend a bootstrap 4 solution, and accept a bootstrap 4 solution which only works in IE10+.

The accordion and many other components can now be done using css, with just a little js used to enhance functionality, and they will work in IE10+.

This is most confusing, On one hand you promote the likes of Flexbox, yet you demonise Bootstrap 4 for doing so. The reason I say this is because earlier versions of Bootstrap that are not based on Flexbox, do support earlier versions of IE.

Please allow me to say that Bootstrap is part of Dreamweaver. Despite that, you are not obliged to use it.

[ALsp]

T

his is most confusing, On one hand you promote the likes of Flexbox, yet you demonise Bootstrap 4 for doing so. The reason I say this is because earlier versions of Bootstrap that are not based on Flexbox, do support earlier versions of IE.

She didn't demonize Bootstrap for using Flexbox. Sheesh. This is how these threads get out of hand. And as for backwards compatibility, I believe our Harmony tool is the only Flexbox page builder for Dreamweaver that automatically does a floated layout for IE 9 and earlier.

Please allow me to say that Bootstrap is part of Dreamweaver. Despite that, you are not obliged to use it.

It is not a part of Dreamweaver. The CSS Designer is. Code View is. Bootstrap is most certainly not.

[Nancy OShea]

pziecina  wrote

I find it amazing that people will say css only versions do not cover every users requirerments, (true, but!) then proceed to recommend a bootstrap 4 solution, and accept a bootstrap 4 solution which only works in IE10+.

Just to clarify, Bootstrap 4 components work just fine.  Flex layouts don't work in pre-IE10.   Besides, IE 8 -9 users are not my target audience.  They haven't been for quite some time.

I can make an Accordion a half-dozen different ways in DW. 

• Code manually with HTML, CSS and plain JS.
• Code with jQuery core.
• Insert >  Bootstrap Components (ver 3.3.7 or 4.0) > Accordion.
• Insert > jQuery UI > Accordion.
• Use another framework or plugin.
• Purchase a commercial DW Extension...

Demonizing Bootstrap is not the answer to anything.  I am with Ben.   I think DW is better for having Bootstrap than it was without it.   Bootstrap replaced FluidGridLayouts, Spry Widgets and ghastly MM behaviors.  I'll be very happy if I never see another line of MM JavaScript code again. 

[Paul-M]

IE11 accounts for about 2% of internet users worldwide, IE10 I imagine is lower and I'd imagine IE8 & IE9 users are very rare indeed?

If somebody really needed a fallback for IE8 and IE9 in a Bootstrap designed website, there's this project: GitHub - coliff/bootstrap-ie8: Bootstrap 4 for IE8 and IE9

It seems when somebody posts a Bootstrap/jQuery related question on this forum it can sometimes turn into a lecture about Bootstrap being limited or its for amateurs etc etc and the thread goes off on a tangent with a few people intent on hammering Bootstrap, It's really not helpful to the person asking for help in the first place.

[ALsp]

It seems when somebody posts a Bootstrap/jQuery related question on this forum it can sometimes turn into a lecture about Bootstrap being limited or its for amateurs etc etc and the thread goes off on a tangent with a few people intent on hammering Bootstrap, It's really not helpful to the person asking for help in the first place.

Actually, what would be most helpful for a Dreamweaver user seeking help with Bootstrap or jQuery would be for them to go to a Bootstrap or jQuery-dedicated forum.

Since this is a Dreamweaver forum, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about Bootstrap. Dreamweaver is not Bootstrap, and this is probably not the best source of Bootstrap expertise.

[Paul-M]

Since this is a Dreamweaver forum, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about Bootstrap. Dreamweaver is not Bootstrap, and this is probably not the best source of Bootstrap expertise.

In case you hadn't noticed there is support for using Bootstrap and jQuery inside of Dreamweaver, so therefore people are going to use it and  they are likely to and fully entitled to ask questions in this forum if they with, I think it's courteous to try to answer. My suggestion to you is stay away from such threads instead of constantly whining about Bootstrap. its really becoming tiresome and your tone is very condescending at times,

My suggestion to you is to build your own app like DMXZone!!

[ALsp]

The Bootstrap support in Dreamweaver is primitive, at best. I shouldn't have to explain that.

My suggestion to you is stay away from such threads instead of constantly whining about Bootstrap. its really becoming tiresome and your tone is very condescending at times.

There is an art to debate without getting personal. You would benefit from studying it.

My suggestion to you is to build your own app like DMXZone!!

We're doing just fine with just our extensions. We are a different type of company. Had we gone in the direction of DMX Zone years ago, and hired or contracted with a large number of employees, we probably would have developed our own app. We kept things small and efficient - and it's worked out fairly well for us. But thanks for the suggestion.

[Paul-M]

      ALsp  .... you are just about the most condescending man I've come across, everything you say and every comment has an air of 'I know more than you' .. 'or I'm superior to you'.  I don't even know why you are on these forums taking every opportunity you can can turn a question about Bootstrap into an opportunity to hawk your extensions. For somebody who is 'doing just fine' it seems extremely desperate to me. I honestly think the forums would be a better place if you disappeared from them completely.

We used to use your extensions ....we stopped, nothing to do with the extension per-say, ITS YOU and the way you talk-down to people, it's offensive. My business partner who is the most relaxed, tolerant., passive man I know even made a comment about you a few years ago, so we decided we wouldn't buy your extensions any more, a decision based on principle.

Now you seem to have taken it on yourself to wage a pathetic, desperate campaign on these forums using Bootstrap as your primary weapon to twist every post into a promotion for your products. The forum would be much more constructive without users with an 'agenda'  and a  clear conflict of interests, especially ones who have very condescending, offensive tone.

[Preran]

Thank you everyone for your feedback, but I do believe that commenting on the blog post on the roadmap would be more useful than this post with a different purpose and idea.

About the number of visitors to this forum, you are right in that there are a number of older posts that people still refer to for guidance. I am not exaggerating the numbers unless there is something wrong with every analytics tool we use. Also the 20:80 rule applies to our forums as well. A small number of posts are read by a large number of people.

Almost 80% of our visitors just visit without posting anything here. Do they always find the answers? We use a feedback form to which, I think, we have 20% visitors responding and I think we are doing pretty OK. I am not sure if we have data on where people go to after visiting here because a lot of them come through search engines like Google.

After we improved the search on the forum, we have a significant reduction in the number of redundant posts (anyone remember the number of questions we got around Spry widgets?). However, we haven't seen a significant reduction in the number of page views.

Nothing I have said is new, and the only reason I reiterate that you helping one person has a cascading effect over a period of months and years.

Thank you again.

Cheers,

Preran

[BenPleysier]

ALsp  wrote

BTW - We are going off-topic again, and as we both know nothing is going to change. Dw for better or worse has tied its future in Bootstrap, and to change course now, will probably cause as many complaints as the end of SB's.

Complaints can be overcome with education. Bootstrap is for amateurs or amateurs that think they are professionals. It's not going to last. And Dreamweaver will never succeed with a half-baked page layout feature. Think back to Dreamweaver 2 and its revolutionary table editor. It provided automation in both directions: create and edit.

Dreamweaver's hope is in distancing itself from Bootstrap and teaching its customers (and some of its ACPs) how web design works.

Do you really mean this, or are you provoking me?

Bootstrap is the best thing that ever came to Dreamweaver and if you do not like it, don't use it. But do not bring the subject up at every (non) opportunity you get.

I know that your definition of an amateur is someone who uses Bootstrap. While you are contemplating a reply, please give me your definition of a professional web developer. Do you belong to this class?

[ALsp]

Do you really mean this, or are you provoking me?

Of course I mean it. I could ask you if you meant it when you said in your response to Paula that Bootstrap is a "part" of Dreamweaver. I rest my case.

Bootstrap is the best thing that ever came to Dreamweaver and if you do not like it, don't use it. But do not bring the subject up at every (non) opportunity you get.

Game, set, and match. I find it curious that at the worst point in the history of Dreamweaver, you think it has found the best thing that has ever happened to it.

I know that your definition of an amateur is someone who uses Bootstrap. While you are contemplating a reply, please give me your definition of a professional web developer. Do you belong to this class?

There are no definitions here Ben, implied or otherwise. These are simply manifestations or, at worst, simple semantics. Over on the Muse forum you can find an ACP (Adobe Certified Professional) that seems to believe that a professional web designer can use WIX or WEEBLY to make a site for a client. I certainly don't want to get into that argument. I do think a professional should have mastery over the tools he uses, though. Perhaps you can squeeze something out of that

The bottom line is that I think it's a fool's errand to base a whole bloody program like Dreamweaver on an open source library. I also believe that it shows the lack of both skill and vision on the part of whoever is planning Dreamweaver.

You say Bootstrap is part of Dreamweaver? That is so patently false I get the hiccups just thinking about it. Do you understand how easy it would be for Adobe, if they were truly committed to Bootstrap, to build a front end around it? Well I do, because we can. So there is something holding them back. But of course, if the Dreamweaver Team possessed sufficient CSS skills, they could easily write a page-layout engine with complete automation. But they don't have that skill set, and even if they did, they lack the commitment to maintain it.

So they picked a brand name. And they sold you all a bill of goods.

Yep.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

I wonder though how much time and money is diverted from Dw to the Brackets project, as it is the same team who manage, (and to some extent code) Dw.

Hummm.... well I dont see much innovation or improvment in Brackets since its initial release unfortunately so one must assume not enough finance is going to either program, which indicates to me Adobe aint bothered if they sink or swim.

pziecina  wrote

BTW - We are going off-topic again, and as we both know nothing is going to change. Dw for better or worse has tied its future in Bootstrap, and to change course now, will probably cause as many complaints as the end of SB's.

Bootstrap will eventually die out as the new breed of developers wont want to use it. They will bring something else to the party, all those who rely on such a short-sighted blinkered approach better be ready for change or die with it.