Cross-References in Inset Text: Cannot Update Chapter and Page Numbers

[garysam]

I want to use the entire contents of Chapter 4 from one publication in Chapter 3 in a different publication.

When I insert the inset text using Import by Reference, the chapter number and page numbers do not update to "3" and the new page numbers for the inserted topic headings.

I've tried using Edit>Update References, with and without the source Chapter 4 file open, and the cross-references do not change.

Does anyone know how to make this work?

Thanks,

Gary S.

[Bob_Niland]

Are these chapter and page number references on the source Master Pages, or something in the source body text?

There are apparently things that do not work as expected when using text insets from other .fm files.

[garysam]

Thanks for responding.

They are chapter and page numbers that are in the body content of the inset text, like "For instructions on how to shutdown the system, refer to "Shutting Down the System" on p. 4-28."

It seems to me that the inset text is a monolith that would know nothing about the other file's contents that it has been dropped into. If I do a search on terms in the inset text, they are not found. So it seems that the only way to update page references in the inset text would be to go to the source file. But, of course, then the updates will be relative to the source file and not the file that the inset text was dropped into.

I'm just trying to confirm whether this is the case. I saw somewhere on the Internet that someone tried to explain how to do what I'm trying to do, but it didn't work. So I don't think they were right.

[Michael_Müller-Hillebrand · Accepted solution]

Gary,

Whether this is understood as expected or not expected behaviour, but the source of the »problem« is the fact that cross-references are always designed as file-to-file links.

So you have publication A and B. And you imported the content of AChap3.fm somewhere in BChap4.fm. [When reusing a complete chapter in another book, it would be easier to just use the file directly instead of creating a text inset. But that would not solve the cross-ref problem.] Let’s assume that AChap3.fm has some cross-references to other files in publication A, like AChap2.fm and AChap7.fm. Even after importing the text flow if AChap3.fm into BChap4.fm, all cross-references still point to the old positions. What else should they do? We definitely do not expect FrameMaker to be an AI system, do we?

If you need this only seldom, you have to »unlock« the text inset and correct the cross-references manually to locations inside the B-book.

If you need this kind of correction on a regular basis, a process can be designed that does this automatically (via FDK, FrameScript, ExtendScript). Its main ingredient would the re-targetting logic including rules how to handle the situation if a cross-reference can not be re-targeted successfully. All this is unique to each publication and therefore not part of the product.

I am fan of solving problems by avoiding them (which is very often the cheapest method), and therefore I would look at the content to check if external cross-references are really necessary. Next I would (try to) make sure that I can reuse a full file, so I do not have to use a text inset.

- Michael

[Van Kurtz]

Gary,

When you insert a file by reference, even if it is used in another publication, the page and chapter numbering changes to fit the new location when you update the book. It is not enough to open the file in its new location and update the references; you need to update the book. Note that only the book file needs to be open to update it.

HOWEVER, cross-references are another thing. IF the only cross-references in the text inset are to targets within the text inset, they will update correctly. As Michael says, the other cross-references still point to files relative to the inset file's original use.

Again, as Michael says, if the inset represents an entire chapter in the new location, it is better to simply add the file to the second book and update the book. The page and chapter numbers will update, but likely some of the cross-references will not, unless they point to files that also are added to the second book. If you use a file in multiple books, be sure to update a book before you output it.

Van

[garysam]

Van, I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond. I'm not sure what you mean when you say " IF the only cross-references in the text inset are to targets within the text inset, they will update correctly." That's the problem--they don't. The inset text is just an un-editable, un-updateable block of text. As I responded to Michael, looks like my best solution is to use conditional text or try a single-source authoring tool that will allow me to re-purpose text content in the manuals for different versions of the product.

[peter minneapolis]

garysam wrote:

Van, I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond. I'm not sure what you mean when you say " IF the only cross-references in the text inset are to targets within the text inset, they will update correctly." That's the problem--they don't. The inset text is just an un-editable, un-updateable block of text. As I responded to Michael, looks like my best solution is to use conditional text or try a single-source authoring tool that will allow me to re-purpose text content in the manuals for different versions of the product.

I think there's at least one way to automate the conversion of text insets to text, so the cross-references behave normally, for printing or other forms of output. I would expect the process to save all files before beginning the process, then perform the conversion, then close all files without saving, so that the text insets are not saved as text.

Search Google for terms like "FrameMaker script to convert text insets to text" without quotes, for some good references.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[Van Kurtz]

Gary,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say " IF the only cross-references in the text inset are to targets within the text inset, they will update correctly." That's the problem--they don't.

This is what I mean. I open the file that is the text inset and insert a cross-reference to some point (the target) WITHIN the file itself. I save the file. Because the cross-reference and its target are both in the same file, the cross-reference does not need to record the name of the file; maybe it records current.

If you now insert this file by reference into some file in your book and update the book, the cross-references within the text inset update to pages, table numbers, figure numbers, etc, that reflects their positions in the containing file. HOWEVER, when you make a PDF, the cross-references are not clickable links; I do not know why, but they will display the correct page numbers, etc. CAVEAT: I do this in structured FrameMaker. Therefore, I am not absolutely certain that it works in unstructured documents, although I believe that it should.

Yes, the text inset is uneditable when you click it WITHIN THE CONTAINING DOCUMENT. That is the way all text insets work. However, you can edit the file inset file itself, and when you update the book containing the file as an inset, your changes will update in the book.

Van

[garysam]

Van, I hear you, but I'm using unstructured FrameMaker and it is not working as you described. Here's what I'm doing:

• I have a Chapter 3 in Manual B that needs to use the entire content of Chapter 4 in Manual A. So I insert Chapter 4 into Chapter 3 as a referenced inset.
• Both manuals use chapter numbers in footers, cross-references, table numbers, etc.
• Chapter 3 of Manual B also has other text that precedes the Chapter 4/Manual A inset. But the chapter numbers AND the page numbers in cross-references in the Chapter 4 inset are relative to Chapter 4, not Chapter 3.
• When I do an Update References in Chapter 3, nothing happens in the inset. When I do a search of Chapter 3, terms in the Chapter 4 inset are not found. The Chapter 4 inset is a monolithic block--it's just a big black box to Chapter 3.
• Going back to Chapter 4, the source text, is meaningless because if I updated cross-references there, the chapter and page numbers will be relative to Chapter 4, not Chapter 3. Chapter 4 has no knowledge of its context in Chapter 3.
• The only way this would work is if I "flatten" the inset and break the link to Chapter 4. But this defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do. I want future updates in Chapter 4 to automatically appear in Chapter 3 when I open it.

So, I really don't see how I can use insets for my purpose. What I am doing in the interim is using conditional text in my source chapters, and just creating separate books for each manual that both point to the chapter files so that I can get my chapter numbering right for each manual. That, and investigating Flare.

Thanks for your help. No need to reply again, unless you see that I'm definitely missing something.

[Van Kurtz]

Gary,

This is a guess, because I have not tested it.

I am thinking that the problem is due to the fact that you are importing a file (the whole chapter) that in its original usage had numbering applied to it. For example, the file is used as a chapter in a book, so it has its numbering set by virtue of its being a chapter (file) in that book. It then remembers the numbering when you inset it into another file.

In my case, the source file is never used as a whole chapter in any book. This file contains one section or procedure or something that is always used as part of the file into which it is inset. Thus, my source files never have any numbering set.

If you want to avoid using conditional text (and I have always had problems with conditional text, because FrameMaker crashed often), this might be a workaround. Cut out all the content from Chapter 3, except maybe leave the title of something, and put it into a new clean document. Then insert this file by reference back into Chapter 3. You can also insert it into Chapter 4. Then never use the source file (the new one just created) as a document file in a book. Use it only as an inset into a file which IS a file in a book. That way, the text inset source file never gets numbering applied to it. The only files that get numbering applied are the files that contain the inset. This scenario would be closer to what I do. Again, this is untested; just a suggestion.

Van

[garysam]

Van, boy do I feel stupid. I now know what I was doing wrong. I wasn't selecting the Text Insets options in the Update References dialog. I've been using FM for over 20 years, and I never used text insets. Whenever I used the Update References dialog, I only ever used the first All Cross-References option, and never even paid attention to what the other options were.

So sorry to have you spend time trying to figure out my problem, when it was my brain all along. Thanks so much for your diligence and time spent helping FM users.

[peter minneapolis]

garysam wrote:

Van, I hear you, but I'm using unstructured FrameMaker and it is not working as you described. Here's what I'm doing:

• I have a Chapter 3 in Manual B that needs to use the entire content of Chapter 4 in Manual A. So I insert Chapter 4 into Chapter 3 as a referenced inset.
• Both manuals use chapter numbers in footers, cross-references, table numbers, etc.
• Chapter 3 of Manual B also has other text that precedes the Chapter 4/Manual A inset. But the chapter numbers AND the page numbers in cross-references in the Chapter 4 inset are relative to Chapter 4, not Chapter 3.
• When I do an Update References in Chapter 3, nothing happens in the inset. When I do a search of Chapter 3, terms in the Chapter 4 inset are not found. The Chapter 4 inset is a monolithic block--it's just a big black box to Chapter 3.
• Going back to Chapter 4, the source text, is meaningless because if I updated cross-references there, the chapter and page numbers will be relative to Chapter 4, not Chapter 3. Chapter 4 has no knowledge of its context in Chapter 3.
• The only way this would work is if I "flatten" the inset and break the link to Chapter 4. But this defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do. I want future updates in Chapter 4 to automatically appear in Chapter 3 when I open it.

So, I really don't see how I can use insets for my purpose. What I am doing in the interim is using conditional text in my source chapters, and just creating separate books for each manual that both point to the chapter files so that I can get my chapter numbering right for each manual. That, and investigating Flare.

Thanks for your help. No need to reply again, unless you see that I'm definitely missing something.

I haven't been following this too closely, so this suggestion might not be especially useful, but I wanted to point out but FrameMaker can import a text flow as a text inset, not just a whole file. Usually, FrameMaker authors work in a file that contains only a single text flow, "Flow A." It's possible to create additional text flows, named as you'd like, placed on body pages, or on reference pages, and import them as text flows into the same or other documents. One useful application of this would be to create a "library" container document in which there are multiple named text flows. You can update all the original content in the single document, which then updates the imported insets.

Search Google for terms like "FrameMaker text insets flows" without quotes for good links.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[garysam]

Peter, thank you for taking the time to try to figure out my problem. But the problem was me all along. Please see my response to Van above. Sorry to have troubled you with this.

[peter minneapolis]

garysam wrote:

Peter, thank you for taking the time to try to figure out my problem. But the problem was me all along. Please see my response to Van above. Sorry to have troubled you with this.

D'oh, if *I* were sharper about this, *I* would have suggested updating the insets. My excuse isn't that I've overlooked the option for the 20 years that I've been using FrameMaker; it's that I'm very infrequently using FM these days, so it's not always running. To crank it up involves cranking up Parallels on my Mac, then Windows, then FrameMaker, so I rely on what I remember and what comes up in Google searches.

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[Harish_Dhawan]

"... HOWEVER, when you make a PDF, the cross-references are not clickable links..."

Hi Van,

This should work in FrameMaker 10. If you are on FrameMaker 10 indeed, try switching "Create Named destinations for all elements and paragraphs" ON in the PDF setup dialog.

~Harish

[Van Kurtz]

Harish,

I DO turn ON Create Named destinations for all elements and paragraphs in the PDF setup dialog; however, I am using FrameMaker 9. From your post, I assume this works only in FrameMaker 10, not 9. Correct?

Thanks,

Van

[Harish_Dhawan]

Van! You got it right. It works FM 10 onwards.

[garysam]

Michael, many thanks for your response. What you explained is what I expected--the inset text cross-references cannot be updated in the context of the file and book that I inserted the inset text. Looks like my best solution is to use conditional text. I'm also investigating single-source authoring tools, like Flare.