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disconnected page VS page break

Enthusiast ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

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Hello,

I need to separate all pages of my document because I want to add one poem on each page. The advantage for me to separate pages is : if I want to modify the poem on page 1, the poem on page 2 does not move.

I have seen there are two ways to do it :

1) add several disconnected pages

2) add page break on each page

 

I have two questions :

1) What do you advise me to use in that case : disconnected pages/page break/ or other way ?

2)  how to change an existing normal page to become a disconnected page, and how to change an existing disconnected page to become a normal page ?

 

 

 

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Community Expert , Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

Have the starting para of each poem have a Pagination property of Top of Page. Ditto for the next non-poem para … on normal connected pages. You may want to have two separate para tags for this, poem.top to start, and poem for body, or similar. Next Para property in the poem.top def would be [poem]. You may already have specific para tags for the poem pages, due to font, spacing, alignment, etc.

 

Page Break is not an independent document object in FM. It's merely a relatively fragile Pagination

...

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Community Expert ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

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Have the starting para of each poem have a Pagination property of Top of Page. Ditto for the next non-poem para … on normal connected pages. You may want to have two separate para tags for this, poem.top to start, and poem for body, or similar. Next Para property in the poem.top def would be [poem]. You may already have specific para tags for the poem pages, due to font, spacing, alignment, etc.

 

Page Break is not an independent document object in FM. It's merely a relatively fragile Pagination override applied to whatever is the current para when invoked.

 

Disconnected pages can easily become a stewardship nightmare, as text is added/deleted in the preceding pages. It also disrupts the Flow, and I wouldn't be be surprised if that results in screwy ToCs & bookmarks.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

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Hi Bob,

Ok, I will use only connected pages from now.

If I understand well, for poem top, I have to set the paragraph designer/pagination like this (see red line) :

If I translate : "Debut en Haut de page" = "Start Top of the page" :

 

screenshot0005.jpg

Is it correct ?

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Community Expert ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

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Correct.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

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Now, always for "poem top" , I have tried to make a 28 pt offset between the top of the page and the begining of the poem (see red line). : 

 

screenshot0006.jpg

But I don't succeeded to have this offset : the text remains at the top of the page. Why ?

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Community Expert ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

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It doesn't work because there is no paragraph above it.

Other members may have a more elegant way to do this, but the simple hack is to create an empty named frame, perhaps named Empty28pt on Reference Page "Reference", that is 28pt high, and nearly any width. Have para tag "poem top", via the /Advanced\ tab, declare it as:
Frame Above Pgf:
[Empty28pt]

 

A more sophisticated way to handle it might be via Master Page Mapping.
The needed Reference Page and table won't exist by default. You need to run an AMP first:
Format ▼ Page Layout » Apply Master Pages…
Create poem-specific L&R Master pages (Poem.Left & Poem.Right), usually derived from normal pages Left and Right
and associate them with "poem top" via the table on Reference Page MasterPageMaps.
Run an AMP any time pagination changes due to added/deleted page content.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

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In Reference page I have created a frame ("frame top") and inside the tag "poem top" I have selected this frame (see red line at right) :

 

screenshot0008.jpg

So, at the top of the page I have the space (made by the frame), but at each next lines (see red lines at left) it put also the same space (made by the frame). How to have the space (made by the frame) only at the top of the page ? Below this space at the top (made by the frame) I would like to be without extra space (normal space). 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

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You want only the first para on the page to be poem_top.
You want only poem_top to have that Frame Above.
The rest of the paras on the page need to be "poem",
which has no Frame Above.

You can set poem_top to automatically set the Next Pgf to poem as a typing aid.
If any lower paras are poem_top, select them and apply poem.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

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Hi Bob,

1) First I have created a paragraph style "Poeme" with no frame above (see red line) :

If I translate "cadre dessus / aucun" = "frame above / nothing".

 

poeme.jpg

2) Then for "poem top", I have selected Basic/Next paragraph/poeme (see red line) :

If I translate : "paragraphe suivant/poeme" = "next paragraph/poeme".

 

poeme top.jpg

Is it correct ?

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Community Expert ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

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re: Is it correct ?

What was the result?

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

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Here is the result : it seems to be OK :

 

screenshot0013.jpg

Thank you Bob for your help.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

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I think I have just found the solution : on "poem top" /"Basic", I selected "Next paragraph / Courant" (see red line at right). So at left, after the space (made by the frame) the next lines are in "Courant" :

If I translate : "Courant" = "Body".

 

screenshot0009.jpg

Is it correct  ?

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 14, 2023 Nov 14, 2023

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"A more sophisticated way to handle it might be via Master Page Mapping.
The needed Reference Page and table won't exist by default. You need to run an AMP first:
Format ▼ Page Layout » Apply Master Pages…
Create poem-specific L&R Master pages (Poem.Left & Poem.Right), usually derived from normal pages Left and Right
and associate them with "poem top" via the table on Reference Page MasterPageMaps.
Run an AMP any time pagination changes due to added/deleted page content."

...............................................................................;

I have first made an "Apply Master page" on the body page.

Then in the Reference page, in the master page table, I have put the "poem top" tag (see red line) :

 

screenshot0001.jpg

Is it correct ? 

If I go in View/Body : nothing happens. Why ?

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Community Expert ,
Nov 14, 2023 Nov 14, 2023

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Have you created Master Page "Poem.Left" and "Poem.right" yet?
The table needs to include the Master Page names, and the intent for Range ("Single" if the poems are only one page).

The names are case-sensitive.
So depending on the page and para names, the table row might need to be:
poem top | Poem.right | Poem.Left | Single | {blank or remark}

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 14, 2023 Nov 14, 2023

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I have created two specific master pages.

1) Master page "Poem.Right"

screenshot0003.jpg

2) Master page "Poem.Left"

screenshot0002.jpg

And I have now this table in reference page :

screenshot0004.jpg

For the moment, nothing happens in the body page.

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Community Expert ,
Nov 14, 2023 Nov 14, 2023

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"3 de 3"
Hmmm. Is this a double-sided document?

What is the 3rd Master Page name? Right? (Droite?)
If single-sided, what did you use to create Poem.Left?

 

And since you didn't specifically say so, just revising the table does nothing. You have to run an AMP to get it applied.
Format ▼ Page Layout › Apply Master Pages…

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 14, 2023 Nov 14, 2023

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This is a single sided document.

To create the specific master pages (Poem.Right and Poem.Left), I have used the function :

Format/Page Layout/New master page (Format/Mise en page/nouvelle maquette) :

 

screenshot0005.jpg

If I translate :

Droite = Right

Gauche = Left

So in master page I have :

page 1 = Droite (Right)

page 2 = Poem.Left

page 3 = Poem.Right

 

Even by doing Apply master page, nothing happens.

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Community Expert ,
Nov 14, 2023 Nov 14, 2023

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As a single-side document, you won't need both a .Left and .Right MP for poems, perhaps just a single MP named Poem. As I recall, MPs can't be renamed, so spin off a new MP "Poem" from "Poem.Right", and then delete the other two. Update the AMP table to show MP "Poem" in both columns.

 

Make sure that some Body page has content tagged "poem top"

 

When running AMP, check for errors of course, and on a Body page that is supposed to be Poem:
Format ▼ Page Layout › Master Pages Usage…
to see what got applied.

If you get this working, you won't need the Frame Above hack.

 

I've never used AMP in a single-side document, so there may be some unexpected FM behaviours in that scenario.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 15, 2023 Nov 15, 2023

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In a single sided document :

1) In the Body page :

- Format/Page Layout/New master page (I name it "Poem")

- Format/Page Layout/ Apply master page (I see that "master page usage" = "Poem")

- In paragraphe catalog I have the tag "poem top" (with the "frame above" created in reference page)

- on the body page I see that the page is set as "body" in the paragraph catalogue

 

2) In master page I see that I have two master page :

- Right (default master page)

screenshot0010.jpg

- Poem (created by me)

screenshot0011.jpg

 

3) In Reference page I set the master page table like this :

poem top / Poem / Poem / Single

screenshot0012.jpg

Results :

1) In Master page "Poem" I see nothing (no frame above)

2) In Body page I make Apply master page, but it changed automatically the "master page usage" from "Poem" to "Right" (default master page), and I see nothing (no frame above).

 

I have also tried the same steps in a double sided document : same problem.

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 16, 2023 Nov 16, 2023

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And the Body page has a paragraph of type "poem top" on it?

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 16, 2023 Nov 16, 2023

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Hi Bob,

My body page has no text (for the test), so I am with "Body" tag only inside.

1)- First I have put a tag "poem top" in the master page "Poem".

2)- Then, here is what I have used in the master page table of the Reference page :

Body/Poem/Poem

Result :  it works : it put the "Poem" master page tag ("poem top") at the top of the Body page.

 

Problem : If I put fisrt some text inside the body page and then if I make Apply master page, the master page usage indicates "Poem", but there is no "poem top" tag at the top of the body page (no frame above the text). It is like if the "poem top" tag has gone (I cannot apply a master page tag on an existing text).

 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 17, 2023 Nov 17, 2023

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For AMP to work:

  • The desired Master Pages have to exist (the MP names are case-sensitive, and watch out for trailing blanks, etc.)
  • The triggering Paragraph Formats (Tags) have to exist (also case-sensitive).
  • At least one Body page has to have at least one paragraph tagged with a triggering format. (this might be the remaining issue)
  • Reference Page MasterPageMaps has to exist (and doesn't, by default - you are past this point).
  • Table UnstructMasterPageMaps has to exist (it gets auto-created upon first AMP attempt).
  • At least one table row needs to have
    Tagname | RH-MPname | LH-Mpname | Range
    (and Range is likely case-sensitive)
  • Format ▼ Page Layout › Apply Master Pages… needs to be run

It sounds like at least one of these is absent in your document.

 

AMP is powerful (I use it to apply deliberate blank pages),
tricky (as you can see from the steps) and
limited (it won't map pages based on body Table content, for example, not your case).

 

Because you have the Frame Above approach working, I was reluctant to suggest an AMP approach, but it does work, when all the stars are aligned.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 17, 2023 Nov 17, 2023

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On the body page :

- I have no text on this page.

- I have of course used the "apply master page" several times.

- the tag used on this page is the "body tag" ("Courant" in french).

 

On the master page "Poem" :

- this Master page has no text.

- the only tag is "poem top" (this tag is using the "frame above approach").

 

On the Reference page :

- I have set the master page table with :   Body/Poem/Poem/Single

(where "Body = body tag used on the body page). So in french I have : Courant/Poem/Poem/Single

 

Result :

1) - on the body page without text : I can see the "frame above" coming from the master page ("poem top"), so I have an offset at the top.

2)- But on a page with text, if I do AMP, it applies the master page "Poem" (I can see "Poem" in master page usage), but it does not displays the "frame above" (coming from the master page "Poem") at the top of the body page.

 

Why the AMP works completely for a body page without text, and works not completely when I have text existing on the body page ?

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 17, 2023 Nov 17, 2023

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re: On the body page :

- I have no text on this page.

That's a problem. When you run an AMP, it goes looking, on Body pages, for tags listed in the mapping table. No tags found on Body pages, you get default MP assignments. You need one para on a Body page of format "poem top". It can be empty, but it ¶ has to have that style.

 

Once you get this working, you won't need the FrameAbove approach. You can just set the text frames on the Poem MP to whatever you want.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 17, 2023 Nov 17, 2023

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A) About the body pages with text :

1) Body page with text and "Courant" tag on the text :

You can see that the master page "Poem" is Applied, but the master page content (poem top) is not applied (no offset at the top) :

 

screenshot0012.jpg

2) Master page with "poem top" tag (offset at the top) :

 

screenshot0014.jpg

 

3) Reference page with "Courant" tag :

screenshot0013.jpg

So the only problem is with a body page with text. The text is tagged as "Courant", and in Reference page I use also the tag "Courant", so it should be applying the master page content (poeme top tag), but it is not the case. (no offset at the top of body page).

 

B) About body page without text

All is working fine : 

The first line of the body page has "Courant" tag, so by doing AMP, it becomes "poem top", and you can see the offset :

screenshot0015.jpg

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