Table footnotes continuity

[FrameMaker-dk]

I am working with a large table with a lot of table footnotes. But FrameMaker seems to have a mind of its own with the naming of my footnotes.

I want to insert a table footnote beside the "g" and according to the continuity of the other footnotes, this footnote should be "i".

BUT FrameMaker can't figure that out. It inserts an "h". If I insert my footnote in another place in the same table, I CAN have my "i" (which is the right letter), but apparently not beside a "g"...

What is happening? And how do I fix it? It seems like some sort of bug.?

[LinSims]

In the English alphabet, h comes after g and before i, so FrameMaker is doing what it's supposed to.

[FrameMaker-dk]

Thanks Lin. Thing is... I already HAVE a "h" footnote. If I did not, you were right ofcourse, but I have already inserted an "h" footnote elsewhere in the same table. So if FrameMaker would stick to the english alphabet, the next footnote in line should be "i"

[Bob_Niland]

A couple of more obscure things to check:
Format » Numbering » /Table Footnote\ ⦿ Custom
Table Designer » /Basic\ Numbering: […by…]

[FrameMaker-dk]

http://framemaker.dk/footnote.zip

Here is an example. Try inserting another footnote here:

According to continuation, that footnote should be "d" but, it will become "b".

[LinSims]

OH! I see what you're saying.

Frame doesn't number footnotes by the order you insert them in, it numbers them by the order they appear on the page. It looks like you have your numbering set up to go by rows instead of columns, so that should be okay.

In other words, it's working as designed. 🙂

[FrameMaker-dk]

aha - ok. Actually I believe this is the first time I have to make FM insert footnotes in a specific order.

So... can I somehow force FrameMaker to insert footnotes in a specific order? The paragraph style is not a numbered style, so that's not an option, unfortunately.

[LinSims · Accepted solution]

Not that I'm aware of, if you want to autonumber them. I think you'd have to modify the paragraph tag for each one to put the letter in that you want used, and you won't be able to have FM renumber if that becomes necessary.

[FrameMaker-dk]

Thanks for the quick help Lin! Guess I'll have to make a change of plans or have a talk with the client. 🙂

[Bob_Niland]

StudioSm: …this is the first time I have to make FM insert footnotes in a specific order.

When TableFNs don't behave the way I'd like, I fake 'em.
Add a borderless full-stradle table row to the table bottom.
Put the FNs there, probably as autonumbered formats.
Make the table cell refs superscripted Xrefs to the paranums in the footernotes.

[FrameMaker-dk]

Hi Bob. Neat! That is an option, but in this case there will be other authors on the document besides me, so I am little careful with using tricks from experienced ninjas  🙂

[Bob_Niland]

re: …other authors on the document…

Well then, just document the hack in the template.fm* file that records (and is the Import master for) all the format and structure for the project. Or add it to the enterprise styleguide if there is one.

Whatever is done, be sure to verify how it flows to the various publishing targets.

* For a 212-page project a couple of years ago, the template.fm file was itself 142 pages. The extra effort reduced errors, saved overall time, and helped support a need for print & PDF publishing to have different page layouts.

[K.Daube]

«have a talk with the client»

Since the invention of footnotes some x hundred years ago they were "numbered" in the order they appear in reading order - aka as the appear on the page. I have never heard (even in the most esoteric circles) that they should be numbered in the order they are created...

If you want an arbitrary sequence, you need to set up custom numbering and provide a list of the symbols to be used. The default provided by FM is a very short list: * † ‡

[Bob_Niland]

K.Daube: Since the invention of footnotes some x hundred years ago they were "numbered" in the order they appear in reading order - aka as the appear on the page. I have never heard (even in the most esoteric circles) that they should be numbered in the order they are created...

There are situations where appearance-order might not do, (or might not work by default, for example where regular body FNs need to be in the same sequence as Table FNs, or where multiple Flows are in use). EndNotes can present their own challenges. And there might be cases where the cites are all to self-numbering things.

re: If you want an arbitrary sequence, you need to set up custom numbering and provide a list of the symbols to be used. The default provided by FM is a very short list: * † ‡

Footnotes might be the only way that FM presently provides authors the ability to have arbitrary counter glyph sequences. It might further be exploited for arcane purposes.

[4everJang]

My client needed to have the footnote number in superscript but enclosed in normal case brackets. FM does not offer any way to do this - either all footnote symbols (including the brackets) are superscripted or none - there is only one setting for the formatting of the entire footnote label. But as my client (the EU) does not take 'no' for an answer, I hijacked the FM footnote mechanism and created my own labels and set a custom format for the footnote numbering to show an empty string. In that way, I can number and style the footnotes however I want and still use FM to put them at the bottom of the page as desired. Of course this relies on either having an underlying XML structure that can be created/augmented using XSLT or a fairly simple ExtendScript to get the highest existing letter for a footnote label in the table and insert the next one.
But I do agree with Klaus that numbering footnotes in any other order than normal reading order is NOT serving the reader of the document, who should be number 1 to serve with any content styling. 

[LinSims]

If they're demanding FM and also demanding it do something it wasn't built to do, they need to check their expectations.

And you can, more or less, do it by just typing the brackets then inserting the superscript in between them. [ETA: as long as it's sequential, of course. What @FrameMaker-dk is being asked to do won't work that way.

Although ... he could set it up so, like you did it, there's no autonumber in the footnote tag, but he can still do the footnote and just cross-reference to whatever he labels it as. Basically the way we handle endnotes.

[4everJang]

They - in this case the EU - do not demand any specific tool, just a very precise look of the finished documents. My client (their contractor) was using Arbortext with an ancient formatting package. I saved them from their constant stream of disasters by replacing Arbortext with FM. And of course pulling all possible tricks to make FM do what I want it to do. I have not yet failed in making anything work in FM.

[LinSims]

I've worked with more than a dozen different word processing and desktop publishing programs over the decades. I've never seen one that formats footnotes the way they wanted. Did they ever explain why they wanted footnote numbers to have non-superscripted brackets? 'cause it's bloody weird.

[4everJang]

I know. They have their very special own ideas about formatting - about a lot of stuff. It is kinda fun to be able to make Fm create all kinds of output, however silly it might look. I did earn my honorary title 'the Frame Tamer' by never giving up and always finding a way to make it all work. Remember the Yahoo acronym: You Always Have Other Options.

[FrameMaker-dk]

Hah! Now I know what happens to all the nice money we spend on the EU! @4everJang has them all in exchange for footnotes in brackets 🙂