PANTONE cmyk values in Illustrator do not match the PANTONE book, bridge, or website values

[SteveInCharge]

What we've done is tried to create a few different swatches using the Solid + Coated versions for 485 (485C), Cool Gray 9 (Cool Gray 9C), and a few other default swatches in Illustrator CC. The color values that a represented in our software do not match the PANTONE books, bridges, website, or the Color Manager that we have installed. The values for the 485C PANTONE in Illustrator show as 4, 98, 100, 1. The values on the website and in the color books show as 0, 95, 100, 0. The RGB and hex values are also different in Illustrator CC (RGB 226, 35, 26) (HEX #e2231a), but the books, bridge, website and color manager are uniform with these as well (RGB 218,41,28) (HEX #da291c). It looks as though Illustrator is the issue, but I'm not sure why this is happening or if it can be fixed. Any suggestions are welcome!

[KTdid.]

You're not helping by not reading what I've written and supplying "answers" that are not appropriate. If you truly want to help, you need to "listen" first. So this has been a frustrating and pointless thread. 

[Eido Studio]

Agreed. Unfortunately ktdid, the respondents have read your comments, and you haven't understood their answers. It's seems that your confidence in 'knowing' is hindering your openness to learning. Thank you Monica and Ton Frederiks for both providing helpful elucidations. Colour is a frustratingly complex world. The most helpful bit for me in this thread was confirming that the fixed point that Illustrator is using is the LAB values, and that the CMYK values are simply being computed by whatever colour space you're working in (and sadly they need to, because CMYK is always an adaptive form of colour representation - affected by ink, paper, temperature, printing press, etc. I agree Ktdid, that a world in which this was not so, would be a branders dream. But, only in the same way in which a kid playing and never getting their clothes dirty would be a mother's dream. ) 

[Ton Frederiks]

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@KTdid. wrote:

Not one person here is understanding what my point is.

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I certainly understand what your point is. But I believe we are living in two worlds.

You want a fixed set of numbers to communicate to your customer and we try to argue that such a fixed set does not work on various output devices and that color management takes care of consistent color but without fixed numbers.

[Eido Studio]

Oh, just learned this btw

If you go to the illustrator swatches panel, select the fly-out menu, and spot colours, you can then select whether you want illustrator to use the LAB value and generate it's own CMYK, or the manufacturer's own specified values.

[Ton Frederiks]

There are no manufacturer's own specified values since CS6, only lab values.

[Monika Gause]

Oh, just learned this btw

If you go to the illustrator swatches panel, select the fly-out menu, and spot colours, you can then select whether you want illustrator to use the LAB value and generate it's own CMYK, or the manufacturer's own specified values.

By @Eido Studio

With Pantone swatches this used to actually generate different results when converting a solid color to CMYK. But it doesn't do that anymore.

So when you want to use the Pantone CMYK (instead of having color management take care of it), then you have to use the Pantone CMYK libraries.

[Eido Studio]

Okay, thanks

[mcblytle]

I agree whole-heartedly with you. Adobe should START with the Pantone Color Bridge book. There is no reason to have disparate values. 

[madtriumph]

If it's any consolation, I completely understand what you're saying and agree with your issue. Obviously, we can open separate Pantone Libraries (Solid Coated, CMYK, etc.), but it would be beneficial to have a master Pantone library that converts swatches to the designated formula when switching between color modes. Much easier than referring to the physical swatch book and plugging in numbers manually. 

[KTdid.]

Thank you! That's it! 

[Ton Frederiks]

When you have a Pantone color Lab value, you have a master value that can be converted to your specific RGB or CMYK values.

[madtriumph]

With all due respect, you don't fully understand the issue and are addressing it incorrectly. The issue is that the LAB swatch must be converted to PANTONE's CMYK and RGB formulas, not Adobe's. Obviously, a LAB color can be converted to CMYK or RGB willy nilly, but we would like it done automatically and to PANTONE specs.

[KTdid.]

Thank you again! I have worked with Adobe and Pantone for over 20 years. This issuse was never so frustrating until I started heavily working in digital spaces. I bridge the print and digital world (mostly digital now)…so perhaps many of those who are choosing to not see the issue as I've stated, and you cleary understand, are primarily print designers.

I created a quick visual to demostrate this issue.

Image description (alt-text):

Adobe color pickers do not present the proper conversion values for other color types for PMS colors. This forces designers to have to manually input the proper color values from the PMS book swatches when creating brand palettes for media use type, etcetera.

Screenshots of color pickers show value conversions for PMS 281 C in Illustrator, InDesign, and Photoshop. The conversions are consistent across the Adobe applications but are not the correct conversions as specified via the PMS swatch books:

CMYK discrepancy

• The color picker conversion for HEX is: 00205C
• The PMS swatch book conversion for CMYK is: #002569

CMYK discrepancy

• The color picker conversion for CMYK is: C100, M90, Y31, K35
• The PMS swatch book conversion for CMYK is: C100 M85, Y5, K20

[Eido Studio]

Yes, appreciate the issue, but you're going to remain stuck if you think HEX are 'universal'/'unchanging'. Its all about the colour spaces. Hope you get there.

[Monika Gause]

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@madtriumph  schrieb:

With all due respect, you don't fully understand the issue and are addressing it incorrectly. The issue is that the LAB swatch must be converted to PANTONE's CMYK and RGB formulas, not Adobe's. 

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No, it doesn't.

Pantone's CMYK values are based on whatever color management settings they want and most probably based on North American print standards, which do not apply in the ret of the world. So if you want to get a closer result to the spot color, you better set up your color management top your needs and get a better match.

[Ton Frederiks]

And the Pantone specs are what? Giving fixed cmyk values only are valid if the printing conditions (paper, printing method, inks...) are exactly the same. If you don't use the exact same conditions the color will be different. Only a conversion from Lab to your CMYK working space will give you the closest possible (if possible at all) color.

[KTdid.]

Hex values are universal and that has been my main complaint the entire time. 

[Monika Gause]

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@KTdid.  schrieb:

Hex values are universal and that has been my main complaint the entire time. 

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Uhm, no.

HEX values are just RGB. Without a color profile HEX are worthless.

[KTdid.]

HEX values are universal: they do not change per geo-location or device. They are what they are no matter what. That's what univesal means: "applicable to all cases."

Bye!

[Ton Frederiks]

HEX codes mean nothing until you tell what profile to use.

 

[Eido Studio]

Agreed! HEX is simply a coordinate system to call colours from a place on a colour map. But, the map of colours can and does change. sRGB is a different map to Adobe RGB for example. If you want a 'universal' colour system then you're looking for LAB, or LCH. LCH is my new best friend because its very intuitive to learn and understand. I recommend Atmos.style for finding digital colours. Its a great tool. Both LAB and LCH are coordinate systems that stretch far enough to cover every visible colour. Oh, and I operate primarily in the digital space. Thanks.

[Monika Gause]

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@KTdid.  schrieb:

HEX values are universal: they do not change per geo-location or device. They are what they are no matter what. That's what univesal means: "applicable to all cases."

Bye!

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The code doesn't change, but the color will - depending on the color profile.

[Monika Gause]

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@madtriumph  schrieb:

If it's any consolation, I completely understand what you're saying and agree with your issue. Obviously, we can open separate Pantone Libraries (Solid Coated, CMYK, etc.), but it would be beneficial to have a master Pantone library that converts swatches to the designated formula when switching between color modes. Much easier than referring to the physical swatch book and plugging in numbers manually. 

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Pantone made these libraries and they decided what existed and what didn't.

There is Pantone Connect now, so complaining about anything won't change the situation.

[madtriumph]

Right, this is somewhat moot since Pantone and Adobe aren't working well together at the moment. If it does come up in the future, however…

[Ton Frederiks · Accepted solution]

The Pantone+ Solid coated library in Illustrator does not contain CMYK values anymore.

It gives Lab values and it uses your color settings to simulate the color for you printing process.

That means that you will get different CMYK values when you choose newsprint or Japanese inks.

Pantone Plus color libraries