Vector PDFs?

[johngordon12]

Sorry if this is a really dumb question (my background is web design, and I do the odd bit of work in Illustrator and InDesign), but is there anything special about a Vector PDF, or are PDFs just a vector (supporting) format?

I'm asking as I've just done some business card designs for a client - the printers I use just print from hi res JPGs, and I've had clients need the designs in PDF before.

I use Fireworks quite a bit, so I usially do the design in FW, export out as a hi res 300dpi JPG, drop the JPG into InDesign, and export out the PDF.

With this job, a Vector PDF is required, so just wanted to check if that's what I'm getting anyway, or if I need a different workflow / export option to create a Vector PDF.

Thanks for any clarification.

[Jacob Bugge]

Iain,

or are PDFs just a vector (supporting) format?

Yes. You may have a glimpse here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF

When Illy helps you create vector artwork, and you Save As PDF or Print to PDF, (that part of) your PDF will be vector; in addition, you may have raster images and raster effects in the same document, without any issues or differences in workflow. You should make sure that you meet any requirements concerning PDF settings.

[johngordon12]

Thanks Jacob - that's what I was starting to think - never really heard them referred to as Vector PDFs before!

The only particular setting was CMYK - in the past I've just accepted the default setting when exporting out from InDesign - had a look just now and didn't spot anything.

Its only a simple design with a white background and two colours of text, so I can't imagine it going too far wrong!

[Jacob Bugge]

Iain,

The CMYK is set in Illy. I was thinking of things like PDF/Acrobat levels, font embedding, and special PDF subsets such as PDF/X, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/X.

But as you say, the dangers should be limited, if you have the colour management right (you may start looking here, ignoring the fact that it is written for Photoshop):

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/home.htm

[Mike_Gondek]

Once you bitmapped a file(in your example when you make this a .jpg), you cannot make it vector again by dropping it in InDesign and making a .pdf.

I don't work in fireworks, but suspect it is similar to photoshop. So elements like type, smart Objects, vector masks and shape layers are vector elements, and as long as you save to .pdf that infinite vector resolution will be retained.

What I suggest you try is save to .pdf (use high quality or a print setting) directly from fireworks, open that .pdf in Illustrator, do a CMD Y so you can see what elements are vector.

[johngordon12]

Thanks for all of this.

I guess what I don't quite have in my head is whether 'vector PDF' is a particular kind of PDF, or means it had to contain vector graphics?

I tried exporting the PNG out as PDF from FW, but wasn't an option.

Would dropping the PNG into InDesign be an option?

These are the requirements:

Any images/photographs should be in TIFF format, or maximum-quality JPG;

and at a resolution of 600dpi

-Your artwork should be output as a (vector) Press Quality PDF (with

embedded fonts and images).

-Final artwork submitted to us should be created suitably for

high-resolution 4-colour process lithographic printing.

So something there about embedded fonts that I'm not too sure about either.

I can get that this sort of stuff might apply to a larger project, but is it just me, or does it all seem a bit OTT for a business card?

Or is it more to do with the printing than source material?

[Jacob Bugge]

Iain,

Ah.

What they mean is:

• Create the actual artwork as vector and keep it vector,
• Do not Type>Outline, but keep the live Type and embed the fonts (that happens by default),
• If the document contains raster images, make sure the resolution is 600PPI,
• (Implied if relevant, unless lower for rugged appearance reasons, set Effect>Document Raster Effect Settings to 600 PPI)

I can get that this sort of stuff might apply to a larger project, but is it just me, or does it all seem a bit OTT for a business card?

Even a business card has rights.

[johngordon12]

Think I've seen how to embed fonts exporting from ID out to PDF.

Should I be able to either:

a. Drop the PNG file into ID

or

b. export the PNG out as AI, and drop that into ID?

Just hoping I don't need to do it from scratch again in illustrator.

[Silkrooster]

The png file would be considered as a raster image in Illustrator or InDesign. You must save the file as an illustrator file then Illustrator will create a vector pdf for you. InDesign normally rasterizes all vector images on import, so you are probably better off using Illustrator.

I did a quick test in fireworks and it rasterizes the pdf files it creates, I don't know why but it does. So you are kind of stuck going the long way around to get what you want.

[JETalmage]

FIrst, you need to know if the printing is going to be color-separated and then printed via commerical offset, or if it is going to be printed to some kind of composite (full color) digital device. In this case, that is specified in the last of the requirements list:

-Final artwork submitted to us should be created suitably for high-resolution 4-colour process lithographic printing.

This means the file is going to be color-separated and printed using normal CMYK process. Your full-color raster images should be CMYK color mode, and (conventonally) saved as TIFF. Your Illustator file should be CMYK color mode. The swatches you create and work with should be CMYK process swatches.

Any images/photographs should be in TIFF format, or maximum-quality JPG;

Generally speaking, for commercial-quality offset printing, you should save your images as CMYK TIFF. If you use RGB images, they will be automatically converted to CMYK when the file is color-separated at the printer. That's okay if color accuracy is not critical. But best practice is for you to save your files as CMYK before placing them in the page layout.

JPEG is a lossy compression algorithm, originally intended to minimize bandwidth for online work and better avoided for print work. Everytime you re-save a raster image as JPEG, the image is degraded somewhat. There's not going to be any image on a business card large enough that file size is going to be a significant issue. In short, there's no need to use JPEG for this.

...and at a resolution of 600dpi

Ridiculous. You don't need 600 PPI for a continuous-tone raster image (like a normal photo). For a continuous-tone raster image, you would only need 600 PPI if the image were to be color-separated at a halftone ruling of 400 LPI. (It won't be.). The rule-of-thumb for continuous-tone raster image resolution is 1-to-2-times the halftone ruling. Typical halftone ruling for CMYK process on business cards is in the neighborhood of 150 LPI (Lines Per Inch). At 150 LPI, 225 PPI is plenty.

600 PPI or more would make sense only if the raster image in question is 1-bit color mode, becauuse 1-bit images are effectively "line art." That is, assuming they are colored with a solid ink (not a tint), then they are not converted to halftone dots; they are mapped directly to the tiny dots which a printing device builds everything out of (Printer Spots). But even with a 1-bit image, if you colorize it with a CMYK mixture that has no 100% component value, it will be halftoned.

For example: Suppose you have a line-art graphic (think of an ink pen drawing) that you only have available as a 1-bit raster image. If that image is set to be printed with 100% K (black) ink, then it will not be halftoned. The pixels of the image will be mapped to the tiny printer spots (which can be as small as 1/3000 inch). In sharply-printed line art, 300-per-inch pixels can give the image a somewhat (not drastically) jagged appearance (a little more evident than if printed on a typical laser printer). But if that image were colorized with, say,  50% Cyan, then the imagestter has to reproduce it using much larger dots (Halftone Dots) which are built up from Printer Spots. So even if the 1-bit image had a PPI of 600, it will be subject to the same "edge softening" as would be a continuous-tone (8 bit per channel) image, because its pixels will be rendered out of (probably) 150 LPI halftone dots, not out of (typically) 2480 SPI printer spots. So in that case, higher image PPI is rendered moot; the excess resolution will effectively be "averaged away" by the halftone process that will be necessary to render it as a 50% tint.

-Your artwork should be output as a (vector) Press Quality PDF

Poorly stated. There is no such thing as a "vector PDF" per se. There is such a thing as a PDF which happens to contain only vector objects, but that would be a ridiculous requirement. Don't confuse yourself over poorly-stated requirements. Conceptually, it's pretty simple: Don't think of "PDF" as either raster or vector. Just think of PDF as a container. That container can contain any combination of text objects, raster objects, and/or vector objects.

(with embedded fonts and images).

When you save (or export) a PDF from your page layout or illustration program, any raster images will be embedded. Somewhere in the export or save PDF dialog, you are provided a setting to optionally specifiy whether fonts are embedded, not embedded, or embedded as a subset (only the characters actually used in the document). In Illustrator, if you use the "Press Ready" PDF save presets, the fonts you use in the file will be embedded as subsets.

JET

[Jongware]

JETalmage wrote:

-Your artwork should be output as a (vector) Press Quality PDF

Poorly stated. There is no such thing as a "vector PDF" per se. There is such a thing as a PDF which happens to contain only vector objects, but that would be a ridiculous requirement. Don't confuse yourself over poorly-stated requirements. Conceptually, it's pretty simple: Don't think of "PDF" as either raster or vector. Just think of PDF as a container. That container can contain any combination of text objects, raster objects, and/or vector objects.

Most likely, they added this just to prevent a fully-rasterized PDF.

[Silkrooster]

I agree, I think they decided to use simple terms to describe what they needed.

[JETalmage]

Most likely, they added this just to prevent a fully-rasterized PDF.

I agree, I think they decided to use simple terms to describe what they needed.

I don't care. It's still a very poor and misleading way to state a requirement (as exemplified by the confusion it generated, thus the original question). It's quite conceivable that a business card (or any other PDF file) might contain only raster images, with or without live text. That would certainly not necessarily make it any less proper for offset printing.

It's a common falacy: Beginning print designers are intimidated by anyone and everyone working in a print shop, assuming them to be experts in every stage of the design/prepress/output process. Beginners should not assume that everyone working at a print shop necessarily knows what he's talking about.  It is healthy to ask questions when something doesn't sound right.

The true print/prepress experts realize they are in business and that it is to their advantage to help beginning designers (customers) understand things. They don't "lord over" their customers. Just like design houses, printing houses run the full gamut in terms of quality staff and expertise. It's quite possible that the person writing the "specs" for a particular print shop knows less about the process, software, etc., than does the designer who walks in the door with a new project. Entry-level employees are just as common in print shops as in any other business.

JET

[johngordon12]

Thanks for that reply - all very interesting to someone like myself who is kind of familiar with some basic principles through the web design stuff I do, but realises that print is a whole different kettle of fish. Although my only real rules of thumb for the limited amount of stuff I do for print (really just the odd business card or A5 flyer to suuport a web project) are:

1. Make sure it prints out at the right size.

2. Is 300 DPI.

3. Includes some bleed.

And I agree that it was the term *Vector PDF* that caused the initial confusion - I get that there is raster and vector artwork, but as you said a PDF is just something you drop that artwork into, and isn't raster or vector itself.

As such it would definitely have made more sense to me if they'd just said that the artwork needs to be vector, rather than them needibg a vector PDF, as that only made me wonder what a vector PDF actually was, having never heard of one.

One thing though - the client spotted that the original I did was raster, and that the one I did was vector, and I wasn't sure how. I guess by not having to really think about it, I had maybe assumed that once any artwork is dropped into a PDF it adopts the resolution inherent in the PDF, but in fact zooming the PDF the original vector artwork retains its scalability and stays crisp and sharp.

Anyway, all been good to learn a bit more as a result of this, and I don't feel like too big a doofus for asking now.

[JETalmage]

2. Is 300 DPI.

Actually, this is a far too-frequently-stated myth. It is a corruption of the rule-of-thumb stated above, which dates back to the very beginning of PostScript printing: To avoid pixelation, raster images should be scaled so as to have a resolution of 1-to-2-times the halftone ruling. For example: Typical halftone ruling for "magazine quality" print is 150 LPI. So the rule-of-thumb for images intended for print at that halftone ruling would be between 150 and 300 PPI. Less than 150 PPI runs the risk of visible pixelation, because the size of the pixels becomes larger than the size of the halftone dots which will be used to render them. More than 300 PPI is needless waste, because the pixels are already half the size of any single halftone dot that will be used to render them.

Users never really understanding this simple principle, read the rule-of-thumb, assume that the high end of the range must be "playing it safe" and so started endlessly spouting that "everything raster must have a resolution of 300 PPI for print." (It's what I call the "Microsoft logic"; If two mouse buttons is better, then ten must be fantastic!) In fact, this is not always optimal.

For example: In almost all cases, there is no reason whatsoever to think that you need intentionally fuzzy raster effects like the ubiquitous drop shadow or blur to be rasterized to a PPI higher than the halftone LPI. It's ridiculous. A 150 LPI halftone screen is not going to be able to render the squareness of 1/150" pixels.

At the other end, if "more is better," why not sample all your photos to 600 PPI? Fact is, anytime you have excess pixels, the halftone RIP process effectively "averages away" the excess data. That ultimately has a subtle blurring effect. In fact, it can be demonstrated that a properly-sharpened photo rasterized to 1.5 x the halftone ruling (i.e.; 225 PPI when printed with a 150 LPI halftone ruling) can appear marginally better than the same image rasterized to 300 PPI.

In other words: Use a PPI appropriate for the printed halftone ruling, and appropriate to the kind of image it is.

As such it would definitely have made more sense to me if they'd just said that the artwork needs to be vector, rather than them needibg a vector PDF...

More accurately, they shouldn't be suggesting a preference of vector over raster at all. Again, PDF is intended to properly handle properly used raster and vector content.

One thing though - the client spotted that the original I did was raster, and that the one I did was vector, and I wasn't sure how.

Depends on what he was looking at. If he was looking at your artwork provided as a PDF, simply opening the PDF in Reader and zooming into it would reveal raster content, because it would become pixelated as soon as the effective resolution of the zoom exceeds the monitor's resolution.

I guess by not having to really think about it, I had maybe assumed that once any artwork is dropped into a PDF it adopts the resolution inherent in the PDF,

No. There is no resolution inherent in a PDF, just as there is no resolution inherent in an Illustrator file or an InDesign file. All of those file types are "object-based." That is, they can contain any combination of raster objects, vector objects, or text objects. Each individual raster object contained can be individually scaled, and can therefore have its own effective PPI, independent of the others. That's in part why such programs exist.

JET

[CHMprepress]

Iain71

You better start learning to make printfiles in Illustrator and Indesign. Fireworks is no the right tool for this.

[voletyk68477232]

Hi,

I'm assuming that you're trying to convert raster vector image to pdf which can be done easier with lot of tools available online.

Please do try and let me know so that will help you if possible.

[Abambo]

You're answering to a 7 year old question. It's very improbable that the problem still persists.

[voletyk68477232]

Though it's a 7 yr old question it has not been closed. So answered it.

[Abambo]

I value the contribution of all users and normally I'm not snappy but your answer was irrelevant to the problem, besides the fact that Fireworks has been phased out, so the problem posed was no more current. I agree: I can exchange Fw with Ps and having the same problem or question.

If you want to contribute with your knowledge to this forum, please make sure that you answer to current questions and problems. That's really useful.

[Abambo · Accepted solution]

By having access to Indesign, you should create any document in Indesign and use other tools (Photoshop, the (now phased-out) Fireworks, Illustrator etc) as supporting tools. Export from Indesign to PDF by setting the relevant parameters to what ever your service provider recommends. If raster images, however, are not in the required quality, they want change to that quality just by outputting a PDF.