[black] not exporting as 0,0,0,100 only on some pages

[johannesc6738977]

Hello,

I am having a problem exporting my indd doc as print pdf. I have all the text set as [black] throughout the document. For some reason when I do the pdf export (colour settings - convert to profile - preserve numbers) some of the pages export correctly and some texts export without a clean black. ie. they export cmyk 74, 64, 64, 98

The problem appears to be on random pages and I feel like I am going mad. What am I doing wrong?

Any help appreciated!

[manal shanableh]

try to delete the color cmyk 74, 64, 64, 98 from swatches.

when you delete it, the delete Swatch dialog will appear with replacement.

Define swatch Black

[johannesc6738977]

Hi,

Thanks, unfortunately there is no swatch with those values. The only swatch I have is [black] and all the text has this swatch applied.

[manal shanableh]

try to add colors which not appears in the swatch.

From swatches menu panel> Add Unnamed Colors.

Diffidently if you have colors unnamed and not add will be added, then delete it and replace it with black.

[Test Screen Name]

Does it happen on the pages with transparency? What is your transparency blend space? how do you measure the final CMYK value?

[BobLevine]

Was this text placed from a Word document? Did you check that the text is actually black in InDesign using the separations preview? Where are you checking these values? Have you tried PDF/X-4 export?

[rob day]

The problem appears to be on random pages and I feel like I am going mad

Sounds like your Transparency Blend Space is RGB. Either set it to CMYK or, if you want to use RGB, export to PDF/X-4 as Bob suggests.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS · Accepted solution]

It sounds like the document is set to RGB transparency blend setting (as Rob suggested)

However if the text is in a graphic, it would be your color conversion too.

If Illustrator graphics, change the blend mode there too. Double check that the text is set to the default Black.

If Photoshop graphics...

1. the PDF color setting was set to Leave color Unchanged, leaving the RGB as RGB. Acrobat will show CMYK numbers regardless of the image color mode of the document/image unless you change the Simulation Profile to an RGB setting.
2. RGB images were converted to a CMYK profile during PDF creation

Mixed CMYK and RGB raster images can be difficult to fix in one document without working the graphics in either Photoshop. However, you can use Acrobat Pro to convert to RGB objects to CMYK this easily using the Convert Colors panel. (Use the same CMYK profile that was used in the InDesign export.) Be sure to select Preserve Black and Promote Gray to CMYK Black. The first setting will prevent RGB black from becoming a 4-color black.

[rob day]

However if the text is in a graphic, it would be your color conversion too.

The OP has chosen Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers). That setting protects all InDesign CMYK swatches and colors from being converted. I think the only way you can get some native blacks converting and others being protected is when there's transparency being flattened with the transparency blend space as RGB (i.e. PDF/X-1a where the Destination profile is not DocumentCMYK and the blend space is RGB).

With PDF/X-4 black will get protected when Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers) is chosen no matter what the blend space is, which is a great X-4 feature because the blending modes work better with an RGB blend space and RGB colors and images.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

@Rob: Exactly my point. If the images are RGB, they are getting converted to CMYK. I believe the Preserve Numbers refers to CMYK to CMYK conversions.

PDF/X-4 by definition does not convert colors, so it could not be set to Convert to Destination.

[rob day]

@Rob: Exactly my point. If the images are RGB, they are getting converted to CMYK.

In this case there are no images. The OP is having a problem with native InDesign CMYK black.

PDF/X-4 by definition does not convert colors, so it could not be set to Convert to Destination.

By default it exports as no conversion, but you can choose any CMYK or Gray profile as the Destination and get a valid all CMYK PDF/X-4.

Here my Document's CMYK profile is the default US SWOP Coated. If I set the Destination to  the conflicting US Sheetfed Coated any objects that have conflicting profiles will get converted. But because I've chosen Preserve Numbers, native colors or CMYK objects with no profile have their values preserved even though they are SWOP. Note that the Standard is still PDF/X-4:

So if your document's CMYK policy is Preserve Embedded Profiles, you can export a PDF where all CMYK objects with embedded profiles that conflict with the destination profile get CMYK-to-CMYK conversions, but all native document CMYK colors get preserved even when the destination profile is not the same as the assigned document CMYK profile.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Until we hear back from the OP, it is difficult to know what is actually getting converted. 99% sure the problem is RGB text is getting converted to CMYK as the CMYK specs are a perfect match. The question is why it is happening on some text and not other. I've never seen InDesign do that random conversion on its own, so my suspension is that some text must be in a graphic of some sorts. We don't really know how the text was selected--could be inline graphics for all we know.

I would say the best option for the OP for this file is to use Acrobat Pro to convert the RGB text with Preserve Black and Promote Gray to CMYK Black selected. If the problem continues, more input would be needed.

RE: PDF/X-4...

Sorry--I should have said "so it should not be set to Convert to Destination."

Just because InDesign's PDF settings allow or don't allow something, does not mean it is following the actual specification.

Acrobat Pro's preflight would not help here because if all the graphics were converted prior to running the preflight, Acrobat wouldn't know since the all-ready converted CMYK graphics are still in the spec.

[rob day]

I've never seen InDesign do that random conversion on its own,

Edit>Transparency Blend Space>RGB does have an affect.

Here both characters are filled with the default 100% [Black]. The text frame on page 1 is set to Multiply, so the page has transparency

The export to PDF/x-1a forces flattening and the fills will be different in the exported PDF because of the blend space:

Page 2 shows as 0|0|0|100

Page 1 4-color:

Acrobat Pro's preflight would not help here because if all the graphics were converted prior to running the preflight, Acrobat wouldn't know since the all-ready converted CMYK graphics are still in the spec.

The specification allows CMYK it doesn't specify how and where the conversion has to be made.

As long as the destination profiles and color intents are the same, you will get the identical CMYK values making the conversion directly in Photoshop, or on export. If setting a destination profile were illegal Adobe could easily disable the Color Conversion dropdown as they do with the Profile Inclusion Policy.

If I know the printer's output profile is GRACol, I could reasonably want to see the final CMYK values in the exported PDF and at the same time submit a legal PDF/X-4—I do it all the time. The output values aren't going to change if I leave RGB unchanged and let them make the conversion.

[johannesc6738977]

Hey Everyone, thanks so much for your input. I believe rob and everyone else who suggested the rgb transparent blend space solved it. I had some neon spots in the doc and had the document still set to rgb to spit out some visual pdfs for approval. I was naive enough to think that the conversion with 'preserve numbers' would still honour my text 0 0 0 100 black.

Well thanks for solving the case! I can sleep well now...

[rob day]

I was naive enough to think that the conversion with 'preserve numbers' would still honour my text 0 0 0 100 black.

Just to clarify, you can preserve the black value and keep the RGB blend space if you export to PDF/X-4.

InDesign's Separation Preview shows the values you would get printing separations with transparency flattened—you will also get those numbers if you export flattened (PDF/X-1a).

But, if you use PDF/X-4 preserve numbers will work. Here I have an RGB background and outer glow, applied to the A with a default [Black] fill. ID's Sep Preview shows a 4-color conversion for [Black] because I’ve chosen an RGB blend space:

If I export to PDF/X-4 with a CMYK conversion, the background green and glow get converted to the destination space, but the [Black] is protected. This is a powerful feature of X-4 because you are no longer forced to use the CMYK blend space where some blend modes act erratically due to the black channel.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Thank you to the OP, but if the problem was the RGB Transparency Blend Space, credit for this answer should go to Rob Day, not me.