Convert fonts to outlines - when is absolutely needed?

[Guest]

Hello,

Do I need to convert the fonts to outlines when exporting to .pdf?

How about before packaging the finished job? (I might be wrong, but I think not since the fonts are packaged along with all the elements).

Thank you!

[BobLevine]

I’m sorry, but that’s just poor advice. WMF/EMF work just fine in Office applications.

I have one client with a legacy system that requires them for inserting logos which I’ve created using CorelDRAW. It’s is quite simply the right format for Office.

[Abambo]

I used Corel Draw a lot, even designed folders in Corel. Our logo, which is quite simple and in black and white was a mess when imported into Word. And it got exported from Corel... I found the best way to get graphics to Office is PNG.

To be honest: I had graphics that were fine to be imported into Word as WMF, but not in a consistent manner. And over time I got an expert in tweaking graphics to work In word. We do all of our users manuals in that software. I would prefer something more stable.

[Dov Isaacs]

Oh, and yes, we and the rest of the industry would be tickled pink if Microsoft adopted the PDF imaging model. As it is, the Office formats not only don't support PDF, but they don't fully support HTML/CSS or even their own crocked up XPS format.

          - Dov

[flaming1]

Dov Isaacs wrote:

Even for logos, outlining text is not really necessary.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point Dov. A logo should NEVER contain a live font if the designer/company cares at all about the integrity of the brand. Font substitution becomes a very real problem if the logo passes through people who don't know what they're doing.

[Abambo]

Font substitution becomes a very real problem if the logo passes through people who don't know what they're doing.

Even if they are supposed to know, what they are doing.

[Guest]

Thank you all so much for your answers, you're truly an invaluable help. This online community is the best I have ever seen, and I've seen many...

Searching for new printer while making final touch ups to my first ever mini brochure

[skiddydoodah]

I have come across in the past some prepress operators try to open pdf in Illustrator to plan / repurpose the pdf ready for their systems, doing this will require fonts to be supplied - or outlined, we stopped using these outdated printers.

[Abambo]

A correctly generated PDF should not need a touch up from any program except the RIP. I also ask my (internal) customers to seek alternatives to those printers.

[Dov Isaacs]

Paul Skidmore wrote:

I have come across in the past some prepress operators try to open pdf in Illustrator to plan / repurpose the pdf ready for their systems, doing this will require fonts to be supplied - or outlined, we stopped using these outdated printers.

As I have stated many times on these forums, Adobe Illustrator is not, repeat not, repeat yet again not a general purpose PDF file editor. The only PDF files that Adobe Illustrator can safely edit are Illustrator files explicitly saved as PDF with the Preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities option enabled. This also assumes that the fonts from the original Illustrator file are installed on the system on which this editing is occurring. In all other circumstances, it is very possible that content will be either modified or lost, colors changed, text encoding mucked up, etc.

It is exceptionally common that when customers complain to Adobe that content from Adobe applications prints fine locally but what comes back from their “professional printers” is all messed up – missing content, wrong fonts, wrong colors, etc. – we find that said “professional printer” opens all submitted PDF files in Illustrator to “check and fix them” not realizing that they are in fact ruining them. I always check with prospective print service providers as to their actual, full workflow before engaging their services. It is amazing what some of these folks do based on faulty urban legends passed along over the years. The more “hands” that touch a PDF file between the time it is created and the time is goes through the RIP, the more likely it is going to be corrupted in one way or another. Unfortunately, there are many vendors out there selling printing companies all sorts of snake oil workflow solutions that supposedly prevent problems and but in fact generally cause more problems than they find or fix!

          - Dov

[ChessChing]

We're a large format printer and I have just received a PDF (132 PDF's actually) that I need to alter and prep in Illustrator. I see a lot of comments on here saying that printers should never need to open a PDF but (and I'm open to being corrected or shown alternative solution) we believe that we do need to prepare the PDF's prior to printing.

For example with this job we are printing 132 unique "thought bubbles". The client has given us the die line in the PDF.

I need to first place the PDF's on the sheet (96" x 48"), I arrange them to make efficient use of the material, then embed them. I then need to select all of the die lines and move them to a separate layer which I label CUT.

I then make a third layer which a label REG. On this layer I place .25inch black dots or registration dots on the sheet for our i-Cut flatbed CNC/cutter to read.

Finally the third layer marked ART I place the PDF's, but in this case and a lot of cases die lines are in the PDF and I need to extract them. OR there needs to be a 5 channel or white ink layer put in certain spots, so often I need to embed them. This is fine if there's just one PDF that has font issues as I can take it into Acrobat Pro and outline it. But in this case I have 132 unique files.

Is there a way to outline the fonts in Illustrator while or before they're embedded?  Hopefully this isn't a snake oil way of doing things..

[Willi Adelberger]

You should never open a PDF in Illustrator as it destroys content. You can place and link them, but this does not make them editable. If someone needs to outline a PDF for any reason, in Acrobat Pro > Print Production >  Preflight is a command to outline text. But there are rare reasons, when it becomes necessary, like cut plotters.

[ChessChing]

Yes but that is not rare here, almost every job that goes though our shop in put on cut plotter or our flatbed cutter after printing. (a flatbed cutter is just a large version of a cut plotter that cut rigid substrates with drag knife or a router or a laser.)

I'm curious why Illustrator would destroy a PDF. They are both Adobe products and more likely than not the PDF was created in and saved from Illustrator.

[Willi Adelberger]

1. If you don't have installed the same font (not only a font with the same name), the font is exchanged with a different one.
2. Any text is broken apart, and slightly moved. Illustrator has a different text engine than any other application, Photoshop has a similar one.
3. PDFs contain complicated and nested masks, opening in Illustrator it might get interpreted with a different result.

Even if you have not all assets of a file used in an AI it is dangerous to open them as many do with placed files with an InDesign package.

[ChessChing]

Asked and answered.

[Dov Isaacs]

Per my responses earlier in this thread and on behalf of Adobe Systems Incorporated, I am strongly reinforcing my previous responses and those of Wilhelm Georg Adelberger and  Peter Spier.

The only PDF files that are “safe” to open and edit in Adobe Illustrator are those PDF files created in Adobe Illustrator using the same version of Illustrator or later and for which (1) the save option for maintaining editability was specified, (2) you have all the original fonts from the PDF file installed on your system, and (3) you have any placed by linking assets installed on your system.

In addition to the plagues mentioned above, you must remember that Illustrator only supports one color space at a time (other than for linked assets) and that PDF supports any number of concurrent color spaces. Thus, your colors can get mucked up terribly by opening a general PDF file in Illustrator.

Of all the problems in prepress that we hear about at Adobe from our customers (including both designers and print professionals), the most common issues stem from somebody opening a PDF file in Illustrator to “check something” or apply some “simple fix” and then resaving the file yielding a ruined PDF file!

You've been appropriately warned!

          - Dov

[ChessChing]

I will definitely heed this advice, though it will add time and complications for our clients.

Are there any plans in the works to make PDF's more compatable with Illustrator?

[Abambo]

The advices will enhance the clients experience. Unfortuneatly, not all of your clients will use Illustrator for preparing their data. But all users should be following your instructions for optimal quality products.

[ChessChing]

Lol I'm not sure about 'enhance' but that's very optimistic of you. I think we'll just remove PDF as a file option and go back to EPS which is too bad because EPS files are so large.

[Willi Adelberger]

corwins schrieb:

Lol I'm not sure about 'enhance' but that's very optimistic of you. I think we'll just remove PDF as a file option and go back to EPS which is too bad because EPS files are so large.

A terrible conclusion. As EPS is in the aspect of new functionality like transparency and color management a lossy file type, as it can't support it.

But when it comes to the edibility of EPS in Illustrator you face the very same problems as you do with PDFs. Illustrator is not a common EPS editor. Only those EPS which are created in Illustrator with the ability to edit in Illustrator are safe to open in Illustrator. All other EPS will be destroyed upon opening in Illustrator. Transparency was destroyed anyway before when EPS were saved in the first place.

So consider using EPS instead of PDFs as a very bad idea. Avoid EPS as much as you can.

[ChessChing]

Sorry, I should have been more clear, we will drop PDF as a file option as ask clients to provide Illustrator EPS files (with all fonts outlined) for graphics containing vector graphics and TIFF files for raster.

[Abambo]

Ask for Illustrator AI files!

[ChessChing]

AI files are programmatic because clients often forget to include the linked files whereas PDF's and Illustrators EPS's don't let you forget.

[Willi Adelberger]

An AI with PDF compatibility includes all linked files in the PDF part.

[Willi Adelberger]

corwins schrieb:

Sorry, I should have been more clear, we will drop PDF as a file option as ask clients to provide Illustrator EPS files (with all fonts outlined) for graphics containing vector graphics and TIFF files for raster.

All your conclusions are deadly wrong. PDF is the best file type ever to provide for service providers. Why do you want to use a worse file type which would give you not even one advanatage. PDF is the standard today.

[Peter Spier]

I don't think PDF is necessarily the best option for a cutting plotter. Color management and transparency would, I think, be non-issues, and outlined type a necessity.