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Copy and paste text from one file to another changes word wrap in InDesign 16.2.1 on mac OS Catalina

Participant ,
Jun 18, 2021 Jun 18, 2021

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I am copying text from a source InDesign file into a different ID document to update the document. Same OpenType font, same text box width (no page or column break), same paragraph style, same everything, yet the text wraps differently and there are different line breaks in the pasted text. Why would this happen? I thought I fixed one instance of this when I restarted InDesign, but it's happening again after another restart of my computer and InDesign.  It is troubling for various reasons, and I don't understand why—or how—it happens. 

 

ID 16.2.1

27 inch iMac (late 2015)

Mac OS Catalina 10.15.7

 

{Renamed by MOD}

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Adobe Employee ,
Jun 18, 2021 Jun 18, 2021

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Hi there,

 

Sorry to hear about this trouble. I tried but couldn't replicate this behavior at my end. I would request if you could share a few more details like:

 

  • OS and version of InDesign
  • Screenshot of the issue.
  • Is the issue related to a specific document? If yes, could you please share the document with us? You can upload it to the Creative Cloud (https://helpx.adobe.com/in/creative-cloud/help/share.html) and share the download link. 
  • When did this start happening? Are there any recent changes made to your system? For example, any antivirus, system updates or web extensions installed recently. 

 

Regards,

Srishti

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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OS and ID versions were included in my initial post:

ID 16.2.1

27 inch iMac (late 2015)

Mac OS Catalina 10.15.7

 

The documents involved include proprietary information, so I can't share without permission from higher-ups. I'll see if that is permitted.

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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Srishti,

Is it possible to take this discussion private? We would like an Adobe professional's insight but do not want to do this on a public-facing forum.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 18, 2021 Jun 18, 2021

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Are they using different Paragraph Composers?

 

 

https://helpx.adobe.com/in/indesign/using/text-composition.html

 

Choose a composition method for a paragraph

  • Do any of the following:

     
    • From the Paragraph panel menu, choose Adobe Paragraph Composer (the default) or Adobe Single-line Composer.

    • From the Paragraph panel menu or the Control panel menu, choose Justification, and then choose an option from the Composer menu.

Note:
 

Additional composition engine plug‑ins from other companies may be available, along with interfaces that let you customize an engine’s parameters.

Set composition preferences

  • Choose Edit > Preferences > Composition (Windows) or InDesign > Preferences > Composition (Mac OS).

  • To use on‑screen highlighting to identify compositional problems, select Keep Violations And H&J Violations (hyphenation and justification).

  • To justify text that wraps around an object, select Justify Text Next To An Object.

  • Under Mojikumi Compatibility Modes, determine whether you want to select Use New Vertical Scaling or Use CID-Based Mojikumi.

  • Click OK.

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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I should have clarified that when this has happened, it was entire paragraphs that were copied from the one document and pasted into the second document (i.e., not a smaller string of text within a paragraph that might cause a different text wrap). 

 

Both documents use all the same paragraph and character styles with identical style definitions between the two documents.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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Yes but styles are built the usual setting is that they are based on the basic Paragraph style.

 

https://creativepro.com/beware-basic-styles/

 

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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We don't do that. All styles are built from scratch.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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Hi Fritz,

 

When you say the styles are built from scratch, what are they based on? You can check in the paragraph style definition where it says,"Based on" at the top. Sorry to ask again, but this is one of the common causes for text to look different when the styles have the same name.

 

Another thought is: 

  • click an insertion point intoa pasted paragraph
  • look at the bottom of the paragraph styles panel
  • if the pilcrow is solid, click it to remove the overrides
  • if it's gray, there aren't any

 

Also, is there a frame with text wrap in one of the files? Check in the Layers panel and look for a small one.

 

Are the margins and columns identical?

 

Without screenshots or seeing your file, all we can do is give you all the possible reasons. Only one will be "correct", but the others all could be.

 

~ Jane

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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I'm actually pretty conversant with text style definitions, which is one reason this is such a mystery. The text style in question is based on [No Paragraph Style], next style is [Same Style]. There are no overrides in the paragraphs in question. There are no page or column breaks, which I know often rewraps lines in the paragraph. No hidden frames with text wrap applied. The margins are not identical (because the page widths are not) but the text box width is identical. And we have been doing this kind of update for many years, although with a Type 1 version of the font, and this has never happened before. But would an OpenType font behave differently in two documents with identical settings? Or in the same document—see my next paragraph.

 

Furthermore, in the source file (from which the text in question is copied), if I decrease the width of the text box by a small amount (5 points), the text will wrap the way it does in the document where the text was pasted, but when I undo that narrowing in the source document, the wrap STAYS in the new configuration; it does not revert to the original wrap. Why would that happen? I'm starting to think there's a bug in my copy of InDesign but was hoping an Adobe expert might have some in-depth technical knowledge of the coding that might explain this. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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I know this is grasping for straws, but we are looking for odd things that might cause this, so nothing should be ruled out until you check it.

 

  • How are you selecting the paragraphs? Are you selecting the pilcrow? If you drag from bottom to top, it is impossible to select the pilcrow.

 

  • You mentioned OT now and Type 1 earlier (before the upcoming EOL). Can you check in Type > Find Font in both files to confirm you only have the OT version? If you go to File > Package, you can also see all the typefaces with their designations.

 

~ Jane

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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I had to look up "pilcrow." Doesn't matter how I select the text. Same thing happens if I select the pilcrow above and below, just above, just below, neither. 

 

Looking at Find Font was a good call, because in the change over to the OT font, some old unused character styles did not get deleted, and there were some type 1 fonts left in one of these documents, but it didn't come into play in the problem paragrphs, and deleting it from the file had no effect. 

 

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions, and I apologize for not being able to share the documents. There is too much proprietary info involved. I will delete my copy of InDesign and reinstall and see if that has any salutory effect. I'm beginning to suspect a bug in my copy.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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Instead of deleting InDesign, try resetting preferences first. It clears things that delete/install does not.

https://helpx.adobe.com/ca/indesign/kb/indesign-preferences-support-file-locations.html 

 

~ Jane

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 19, 2021 Jun 19, 2021

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Yes, no worries, completely understandable.

 

Can you recreate the issue with new files using dummy text? 

I'd be happy to take a look at your actual files - or any dummy files you can create.

Any of the people here who are 'Community Professionals' or other Adobe tags on their names are trustworthy.

 

Feel free to send me a private message, and I'm sure others wouldn't mind either, but I can't speak for them.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 18, 2021 Jun 18, 2021

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Further note:

I don't know where I got this but saved it to my dropbox a long time ago

 

Adobe Single-Line Composer.
In the past, programs like QuarkXPress and PageMaker have used single-line composition methods to flow text. This method marched line by line through a paragraph and sets each line as well as possible using the applied hyphenation and justification settings. The effect of modifying the spacing of one line on the lines above and below is not considered in single-line composition. If adjusting the space within a line causes poor spacing on the next line, tough luck. When you use Adobe Single-Line Composer, the following rules apply:
Adjusting word spacing is preferred over hyphenation.
Hyphenation is preferred over glyph spacing.
If spacing must be adjusted, removing space is preferred over adding space.

Adobe Paragraph Composer
InDesign’s Adobe Paragraph Composer (called the Multi-Line Composer in previous versions) is selected by default. It takes a broader approach to composition by looking at the entire paragraph at once. If a poorly spaced line can be fixed by adjusting the spacing of a previous line, the Paragraph Composer reflows the previous line. The Paragraph Composer is governed by the following principles:
The evenness of letter spacing and word spacing is the highest priority. The desirability of possible breakpoints is determined by how much they cause word and letter spacing to vary from the Desired settings.
Uneven spacing is preferred to hyphenation. A breakpoint that does not require hyphenation is preferred over one that does.
All possible breakpoints are ranked, and good breakpoints are preferred over bad ones.
The paragraph composer is more sophisticated than the single-line option, offering generally better overall spacing because it sacrifices optimal spacing a bit on one line to prevent really bad spacing on another, something the single-line method does not do.

 

However, there is one frustration in dealing with the paragraph composer: When you try to edit text or play with tracking to get rid of an orphan or widow, the paragraph composer keeps adjusting the text across several lines, often counteracting your nips and tucks. The single-line composer doesn’t do that.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 21, 2021 Jun 21, 2021

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Hi Fritz,

what was not discussed yet:

If you open a document from an earlier version of InDesign in the current version it could be that text composition does not change at all by only opening the document. But you might see a change if you edit the text or if you copy/paste text or a text frame to a new document. The cause of this could be changes in text composition in a newer version of InDesign.

 

Regards,
Uwe Laubender

( ACP )

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Participant ,
Jun 21, 2021 Jun 21, 2021

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Uwe,

Thanks for bringing this up. Can you say more about how text composition would change between versions?

 

That seems like a problem. If a document is carefully typeset to achieve the justification, hyphenation, and spacing that is desired, and then text is pasted into a new document, it sounds like some of that careful work might be undone. Is there any way to know how text composition will change? 

 

The current problem is occurring in documents saved in the most up-to-date version of InDesign, so I don't know if what you're referring to is relevant to this, but if you can describe what changes might occur between versions, it may help us. Thanks.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 21, 2021 Jun 21, 2021

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Hi Fritz,

hard to tell what exactly can change and why. It might be a bug fix of a long standing composition bug, it might be a better algorithm in hyphenation. You cannot foresee that…

 

When it comes to the very same InDesign version:

Were both documents created on the same machine?

 

If not: I would not rule out changes with the installed fonts.

One version of the same font on one machine, a different version of the same font on the other.

 

Regards,
Uwe Laubender

( ACP )

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Participant ,
Jun 22, 2021 Jun 22, 2021

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Uwe,

I tried replying to your latest yesterday and it wouldn't go through. Not sure why not. Something about identical posts received withing 3,600 seconds. 

 

Anyway, regarding whether they were created on the same machine:

A file from last year is stored on a shared server. It was updated for the current year by someone else and saved on the server in an older version of ID. I download the file (a copy) from the server and save to my machine. I had a newer version of ID, but now all who work with these files have the current version. But for the files where the problems occur, they were basically created on my computer. We all use the same version of the font.

 

Also, see my paragraph above about a change that does't revert when the change is undone:

Furthermore, in the source file (from which the text in question is copied), if I decrease the width of the text box by a small amount (5 points), the text will wrap the way it does in the document where the text was pasted, but when I undo that narrowing in the source document, the wrap STAYS in the new configuration; it does not revert to the original wrap. Why would that happen? I'm starting to think there's a bug in my copy of InDesign but was hoping an Adobe expert might have some in-depth technical knowledge of the coding that might explain this.

 

This all happened on one machine with one version of the font. This is why I suspect a glitch in my version of InDesign. I'm still waiting to hear from colleagues who I've asked to try to reproduce this on their computers.

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New Here ,
Aug 31, 2021 Aug 31, 2021

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I am having this same issue. Was a fix ever identified?

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Participant ,
Aug 31, 2021 Aug 31, 2021

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Sorry, no, the situation was never fixed. The investigation into the problem was taking too much time and we had to move on, accepting the fact that paragraphs might not always look the way they had in the past. 

 

How did your problem manifest? Can you describe what happened? I find it all very curious. Did it occur in the course of a change from a Type 1 to an OT font?

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New Here ,
Aug 31, 2021 Aug 31, 2021

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I got it working. It does seem that it was a font issue (extensis plug-in connected to InDesign). I updated Suitcase, Creative Cloud (Indesign and the plug-ins specifically), reinstalled the fonts and it seems to copy over just fine now.

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New Here ,
Aug 31, 2021 Aug 31, 2021

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This is an example of what it was doing. It was a direct copy-paste to a new document, no sizing of the text boxes, just the font issue arising...

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 31, 2021 Aug 31, 2021

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Check the baseline grid preferences, specially the increment values. If the preferences are different between the 2 documents, this may happen.

Capture d’écran 2021-08-31 à 19.44.31.jpg

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New Here ,
Aug 31, 2021 Aug 31, 2021

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Baseline grids were the same between the two documents. 😄 
It works now, it could have been the original was built in the latest verison of ID, and mine was due for an update. But it's still strange that it opened just fine, just wouldn't copy the same. haha. Here are a couple of error messages I got before...

 

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