Export changes K=100% to CMYK in PDF

[Improving]

Hi,

I have designed a booklet in InDesign with standard setting (seems to be Fogra39). We have even printed it with a printing firm without issues. Now we are moving to a new printing firm and they want the export in FOGRA52. But if we switch the export our black K=100% text is exported as CMYK mixture (if I turn black off in Adobe Print preview, I still see the text in the 3 other colors) and the printing firm is saying that it will have undesirable shadows. 

Problem: When exporting with a new color profile, our K=100% becomes CMYK.

Desired result: use FOGRA52 for export and change just the export settings and still keep the text in K=100%

Any idea how to do that?

Here a few screenshots:

NEW export settings (just showing the differences to the working export, which is just the color conversion into the target profile):

This is the only change we do in comparison to the previous export that works just fine.

This are the settings that work (Fogra39 and not color conversion):

And these are all the basic settings I could think of that have something to do with color. But I would like to just correct the export and not all the other programm settings (if possible):

Color Settings (standard - no changes done) (as I understand, this is for all future documents, so we do not want that):

True Black (tested changing "use correct black for output" -> didn't yield any effect in the export result):

Set Color profile (as I understand this is just for display and as I have no calibrated display, it makes no difference):

and lastly 

convert profile (I have seen in a different thread that "placed object are not converted" - so why would I use this):

I have even reinstalled Adobe Pro, which was a suggestion in an different thread with a similar issue.

What am I missing? 

Thank you very much for any input

[rob day · Accepted solution]

What am I missing?

Hi @Improving , Coated FOGRA39 (your document’s Assigned CMYK profile) and PSO Uncoated v3 (your Export Destiantion) are not the same profiles, so the conflict forces the conversion of  Black to 4-color. Set your document‘s CMYK profile to PSO Uncoated via Edit>Assign Profiles... (not Edit>Convert to Profile), and in the Export>Output tab set the Destination to Document CMYK - PSO Uncoated.

[Improving]

@rob day you are a life saver, I was reading on it for hours now, but as I am just learning all the stuff, not everything makes sense to me right away.

As you seem to understand the differences between the following, can you please confirm I understood it correctly, or even better maybe explain the differences in a very basic way :). The reason I didn't try what you proposed is that I read in different forums, that the assign profile is just for the monitor ... which does not seem to be correct.

Can you please help me with my understanding:

• edit > color settings (for all future projects - does not impact the current one)
• edit > Assign Profiles ...? (not only for monitors ... 🙂 )
• edit > Convert to Profile (why not use this - I read "Assigning a new profile doesn’t change the colors’ output values" - so what does it do?)
• export  .. why did you chose the Dokument-CMYK and not the "standalone" "PSO Uncoated V3". And why did you actually chose any conversion at all, given that the profile was already in "PSO Uncoated V3" after the first change.

Thank you so much for helping me learn more!

[rob day]

edit > color settings (for all future projects - does not impact the current one)

If an existing document has CMYK and RGB profiles assigned, the Color Settings Working Spaces have no affect on the document. Generally speaking you always want to assign profiles to a document otherwise the color appearance for that document would always be changing depending on what the current Color Settings’ Working spacess happen to be.

edit > Assign Profiles ...? (not only for monitors ... 🙂 )

No. The assigned document profiles color manage the document (Color Settings does not unless there is no document assignment).

The profile assignments have nothing to do with monitor profiling. The monitor profile (which is set by the OS when a monitor is calibrated), is important because the profiled document colors gets converted into the Monitor RGB space (profile) for display. So in the case of a CMYK color, if either the CMYK profile assignment or the System’s Monitor Profile are wrong the display will be less accurate.

And why did you actually chose any conversion at all, given that the profile was already in "PSO Uncoated V3" after the first change.

When you choose Convert Colors with the Destination set to Document CMYK, the native CMYK colors and swatches export unchanged, but any RGB color, or CMYK images with conflicting profiles, would get converted into the Destination CMYK space.

In general there is no need to place CMYK images because the conversion from profiled RGB to Document CMYK on an InDesign export would be the same as making the conversion in Photoshop assuming the same source and destiantion profiles—it’s a more efficient way to color manage.

[rob day]

and lastly convert profile (I have seen in a different thread that "placed object are not converted" - so why would I use this):

Also, Convert to Profile converts native InDesign colors and swatches ony, with the exception of the default [Black] swatch, which gets protected.

So in your case where the document has been assigned Coated FOGRA, but your output Destination is Uncoated FOGRA, you can choose to assign PSO Uncoated and the CMYK color values will not change but their appearance will—they display as they are expected to print on the uncoated sheet.

Or, you can choose Convert to Profile and the native CMYK Swatches and Colors will get new CMYK values and their appearance will be remain unchanged if they are in the PSO Uncoated color gamut. The [Black] Swatch would be unchanged, but any black only gray swatches would get converted to 4-color.

[Improving]

Ok, so if I understand it correctly, I do not want any surprises with colors, I do it the way you proposed (assign profile) and then export. 

But I am still confused, why the pure change of "appearance" (colors will not change but thier looks on display will) and then the export of the appearance does not change the [black], BUT if I only do the export, without the change of "appearance" I get the [black] changed to CMYK. Why is it important for export, how I "as human see" the colors?

[Improving]

And one more if I may. With the edit > color profile, I changed the apperance. But where do I see the current document profile, as InDesign uses it. Because if those are different, that would explain to me, why I still had to pick color conversion during export (because what I see, is not what the program has set in the background), rather then use "no color conversion".

[rob day]

But where do I see the current document profile, as InDesign uses it.

There is no Edit>color profile. The assigned document profile can be found in a few places—Edit>Assign Profiles... lists the currently assigned profiles:

Note that there is a distinction between Document CMYK and Working CMYK. So in the above capture my Color Settings Working CMYK space is currently set to US Sheetfed Coated, but PSO Uncoated is the Document CMYK space and handles CMYK conversions—e.g., the conversion into your Monitor RGB profile for the soft proof display, or any swatch conversions e.g., converting an RGB swatch to CMYK, or a CMYK swatch to RGB.

The PDF/X-4 preset you are using sets Output>Color Conversion to No Color Conversion by default. If you change it to Convert to Destination, the Document CMYK assignment is listed at the top of the profile list along with the Working CMYK space (whatever the current Color Settings’ Working CMYK Space happens to be):

If the Color Settings’ Working CMYK Space, and the document’s assigned CMYK profile happen to be the same, Edit>Assign Profiles... would look like this, but PSO Uncoated is the assigned document profile:

[Improving]

Hi @rob day ,

thank you for the explanation between working and document CMYK. 

I have exportet as suggested, yet we have an issue with the printing matching our previous products. We use an orange color in big areas and it is much darker than we print with other companies. The paper is the same (offset), but with the other companies we used Fogra39 (basically using the standard InDesign settings, as they didn't require anything else. But we also have calendars, cards, stickers all in Fogra39 and all matching after print).

Now using Fogra52, the color is off. The new printing company said, they exported the pdf once more in Fogra52 and then the colors seemed to be lighter (the way we need them). So I am wondering, what I am still potentially doing wrong. Could you please have a look (sorry it is in German, but you might understand the settings):

These are the settings:

RGB translation: keep embedded profiles

CMYK: keep values (ignore profile in shortcut)

the last 3 lines say roughly: use color setting priority

By the way, for some reason I am also not getting this Fogra27 issue, which I have not had before. But as I understand it, I can just delte it

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/output-condition-identifier-confusion/td-p/13256... 

so the export woud go today from this:

to this:

Any ideas, what I might still be doing wrong?

Thanks!

[Improving]

By the way, I was told that the printing company, when they reexported our PDF to Fogra52 they used

Color conversion: convert to destination

Destination: PSO Uncoated v3 (Fogra52)

Profile inclusion policy: do not include profile

I cannot change the profile inclusion policy. That sounds like the only change they did......

Any thoughts?

[rob day]

The paper is the same (offset), but with the other companies we used Fogra39 (basically using the standard InDesign settings, as they didn't require anything else.

Just to clarify a few things FOGRA39 is an offset profile for a coated sheet, and FOGRA52 (PSO Uncoated v3) is a profile for an uncoated sheet. Were you printing on a coated sheet with the previous printer and are now printing on an uncoated sheet with the new printer?.

Also, what is the color mode and values of the source orange, and is it a native InDesign color or swatch (not a placed color)?

[Improving]

@rob day it is both uncoated offset paper (but we have used it on coated paper, uncoated paper, vinyl stickers ... and the color always turned out fine with the Fogra39 export).

We have also exposted some sticker for the new printer with Fogra51 and the test print matched perfectly fine with our previous Fogra39, which is why I am so confused with the Fogra52 export.

The color is our own definition (meaning swatch, correct?): C=0,M=58, Y=85, K=0, set up as process color

[rob day]

So you are always exporting the same 0|58|85|0 CMYK value whether the sheet is coated or uncoated? If that's the case you would expect a color appearance difference on press.

[Improving]

Yes, I was exporting Fogra39 for the past various products. 

Now, with Fogra51 all was fine, with Fogra 52 it didn't match. And yes, I didn't change the color in any way, just the export profiles. But isn't that the point of the profiles? You have the same color across multiple products and depending on the profile it exports it in such a way, that when printed it is always the same?

If I pick a specific color, I want it to be the same, independent of the base it is printed on... or am I wrong?

How do you otherwise get the same color across different products, when one printer requires Fogra51, the other Fogra52, the third Fogra39?

And why would Fogra39 used on offset, digital pring, coated, uncoated, vinyl, cardboard, ... always yield the same color? (as it did in the past?)

Thanks

[rob day]

The reason for Color Management and profiles is, the same CMYK value might have a different print appearance depending on the profile of the press.

InDesign soft proofs the expected difference when you assign different profiles to the same color. Here you can see your 0|58|85|0 orange displays differently depending on the CMYK profile assignment—your orange is going to print with more gain on the uncoated sheet so the soft proof is a darker color:

In order to get a similar appearance on an offset press running an uncoated sheet there has to be a conversion from  FOGRA39 to PSO Uncoated FOGRA52. Here you can see Convert to Profile converts 0|58|85|0 to 0|47|100|0 which compensates for the extra dot gain and lack of saturation you would expect on the uncoated sheet:

why would Fogra39 used on offset, digital pring, coated, uncoated, vinyl, cardboard, ... always yield the same color? (as it did in the past?)

It maybe your printers were doing additional color management at output. If by digital you mean a composite printer—most composite printers do not output provided CMYK values unchanged. Normally composite printers have "RGB" drivers and there is always a conversion from the source color profile to the final print output profile.

[Improving]

@rob day I am so thankful for your input. Thank you! This is all a bit confusing for me, so thank you for all your patience!

I think I understand some of it, but am still (or again?) confused on other parts.

Please allow me to recap in my own words and feel free to correct me, where I am wrong:

.... at the beginning..... I had the issue that my black was converted from K=100 to CMYK when exporting.

The issue was that the color profile (under assign profiles) was a different one (Fogra39) from the export profile (Fogra52). So I had to match that, otherwise there was a forced conversion, which lead to the issue of converting black to shades of black. I think I understand. 

NOW, the orange does not match our past experience with Fogra39. That is because same CMYK values on different papers do not have the same "look/shade" due to the differnt paper. So in order to get the same "look/shade" in real life on different papers I need to convert the CMYK color (because the same color in different profiles, does not mean same color no different papers).

A question/confusion that goes back to the begining to my question and your answer (by the way I have not yet run "convert to profile"):

and lastly convert profile (I have seen in a different thread that "placed object are not converted" - so why would I use this):

Also, Convert to Profile converts native InDesign colors and swatches ony, with the exception of the default [Black] swatch, which gets protected.

So in your case where the document has been assigned Coated FOGRA, but your output Destination is Uncoated FOGRA, you can choose to assign PSO Uncoated and the CMYK color values will not change but their appearance will—they display as they are expected to print on the uncoated sheet.

Or, you can choose Convert to Profile and the native CMYK Swatches and Colors will get new CMYK values and their appearance will be remain unchanged if they are in the PSO Uncoated color gamut. The [Black] Swatch would be unchanged, but any black only gray swatches would get converted to 4-color.

I had to read that multiple time, after running into the orange problem and only now it makes a bit more sense.

Going forward --------------------------------------------------

I think, I need to do "convert to profile", because I want the orange to look the same across different papers. So I should expect, that the CMYK values will change. ok. Black should still be ok. So yes, that is what we want.

1. So I just go to "Edit > convert to profile > Fogra52"?

2. Strangely, when I go to convert profile it says the CMYK: Fogra52. But I am 100% sure I have not yet run the conversion . Also when I run it, the orange remains dark.

When I set "assign profile" back to Fogra39 the source CMYK profile changes under "convert profile" and the orange looks as we are used to it.

So what are the correct steps, to have this latest orange exported under Fogra52?

Seems like, I should not use asign profile to 52 but return it to 39? When I then do "convert profile" to 52, the color remains the orange we want it. When I then check "asign profile", I see 52, thus the conversion worked also on "asign profile". And exporting it with in 

Color conversion: convert to destination

Destination: PSO Uncoated v3 (Fogra52)

The orange is light again.... I think that is it?!? But are these really the logical steps (also for future projects, as all of our data is in Fogra39).

Yet, I am now again confused on the differnce of "asign vs convert" profile 😄

Why did the "asign profile" show up in the "convert profile" as the source CMYK profile, given that it was only assigend and not coverted and also if the results between asign and convet are actually different?

[rob day]

2. Strangely, when I go to convert profile it says the CMYK: Fogra52. But I am 100% sure I have not yet run the conversion . Also when I run it, the orange remains dark.

The Convert to Profile dialogs you are showing have the same profiles as the source and destination so nothing happens.

The difference between assign and convert is with assign you are simply changing the document’s assigned profile—the output values don’t change. If the CMYK profile is changed all CMYK colors are displayed in the new space—the amount of appearance change depends on how different the profiles (printing conditions) are.

Convert to Profile does two things—the actual CMYK output values are changed for the new printing conditions and the new destination profile is assigned. In many cases the color appearance is preserved because the new assignment compensates for the change in values.

It sounds like you are looking for an easy way for a branded color to have the same appearance across different print output devices. Using a CMYK color as the "master" color can be a problem because the appearance of any CMYK color is dependent on device or profile assignment. This thread might be useful where the "master color" defined as a device independent Lab color:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/branding-color-guide/td-p/10818696

[Improving]

Yes, we want a standard color to remain same across different print outputs. I have skimmed your link, but will need more time to fully understand it.

So is it as for now the correct approach, to have the CMYK same output with 39 as with 52?

1. return asign profile to Fogra39
2. convert profile to Fogra52
3. Exporting it with

Color conversion: convert to destination

Destination: PSO Uncoated v3 (Fogra52)

Thanks!

[rob day]

Yes. After the conversion Separation Preview should show new output vaules. Also the default [Black] swatch gets protected, but all other built black only swatches will get converted to 4-color mixes.

[Improving]

Sorry, but thinking of it...

I converted the document to Fogra52 now. So do I really need to say at export "convert to target profile > Fogra52" again? Because it actually now shows "no conversion" and the name of the output is Fogra52. Which would be correct.

Is the whole document not in Fogra52 after the conversion, making the selection of a target export conversion obsolete? Can I just leave "no color conversion" given the ouput is Fogra52 preselected?

[rob day]

If you want all of the color in the document (RGB, Lab, placed RGB images or images in a different CMYK space) to be converted into FOGRA 52, you would want to use Convert with the Destination set to Document CMYK PSO - Uncoated FOGRA 52.

You have converted the native InDesign CMYK colors to FOGRA 52 but not any other RGB or Lab colors yo. Also if you have placed RGB images or CMYK image with conflicting embedded profiles

[reproo2773183]

One warning about the difference between Assign and Convert.

Assign is not destructive, you can go back from FOGRA 52 to FOGRA 39 and get the same % values.

Convert is always destructive, you can't go back and get the same % values you started with.

An Observation.

As Pre-Press for a Printer that prints most jobs uncoated, I find it really strange that a Printer would ask YOU to convert to FOGRA52.

Coated Profiles are in general a reasonable match for silk, satin and matt stocks. Uncoated stocks vary in colour much more but FOGRA has to choose just one.

Here I always recommend customers either give us profiled RGB or convert to FOGRA 39 or 51. So even if I'm printing on uncoated I'm trying to match a FOGRA coated EPSON proof. I've more tools here to convert from this to Print on uncoated, and I'm not normally using profiles to do this.

I'm wondering if your previous printers were the same as me and thats why they were asking for FOGRA39 and getting good results on uncoated.

[steven91051580]

After struggling with this for a while, on discussion with a supplier, I managed to get the black to stop converting to CMYK by using a PDF/X standard, which opened up the Output Intent Profile Name menu that was greyed out previously. See attached.