InDesign CS3 -> PDF = fuzzy font, and random bold

Report · Feb 26, 2008

Hello,

When I print straight from InDesign CS3, Garamond font looks fine. When I export to PDF, then print from Acrobat Professional 8, version 8.1.2, the Garamond font is not as crisp-looking. Also, when I print the PDF from Acrobat, there are a 2 or 3 lines of Garamond text (seemingly randomly dispersed among the rest of the text, although they're the same lines every time) that actually look like they're bold, even though they're not, in the original.

The fonts seem to be embedded. I am printing to a Ricoh Aficio MP C2500 PCL6 printer in both cases. I am running Windows XP Professional (Version 5.1) Service Pack 2.

This happens when I print in color. When I print in black and white, everything looks pretty crisp from Adobe Acrobat Professional.

Thanks so much for your help.

Report · Feb 26, 2008

I would say the text is being made up in CMYK in the pdf not just K.

If you check the output preview in Acrobat. Hide the Black plate does the text still appear?

If so you need to look at your colour settings when exporting the PDF from InDesign.

Report · Feb 27, 2008

In the Output dialog, I changed Color Conversion from "No Color Conversion" to "Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)". Destination is "U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2)". Profile Inclusion Policy is "Include Destination Profile".

Then, in Acrobat I check output preview and hide the Black plate. The text does not appear. However, I get the exact same result with the same lines looking bold when I print in color from Acrobat. (Also, there is some color text, and it looks slightly out-of-focus as well. This color text is using BellGothic Blk BT font.)

Thank you so much for your help.

Report · Feb 27, 2008

It seems that if I print to PDF, and then print to the printer from Acrobat, I don't see anything fuzzy or bold, the text looks just as good as printing directly from InDesign.

I looked into it some, would it be because of CID fonts? Is Garamond converted to CID by the "export" command? And then the printer can't handle it?

I guess the problem is solved but it would be great to know why. Also we do have some pdfs around that are printing fuzzy. I exported one to Microsoft Word and it looks better when printed directly from Microsoft Word. ????

Report · Feb 27, 2008

If the text only appears on the black plate your PDF is getting made correctly from InDesign. Sounds like you may have a print setting wrong in Acrobat instead.

You don't have "Print as Image" turned on in the Advanced print settings in Acrobat do you?

This could cause fuzzy text and slower print times.

Actually, now that I think of it probably isn't a wrong setting in Acrobat because your distilled file prints fine from Acrobat.

Now I'am thinking it is a print driver problem.

Report · Feb 27, 2008

Could be a color conversion in the Acrobat print dialog. Click the advanced button and see what the color management settings are in the output section.

Peter

Report · Feb 27, 2008

In one test, I did turn on the "Print as Image" setting -- that made everything consistently fuzzy and bold-looking, instead of just those few lines.

What should I have in the color management settings in the output section? I have the following:

Color: Composite
Color Profile: Printer/PostScript Color Management
Transparency Flattener Preset: [Medium Resolution]

and "Use Maximum Available JPEG2000 Image Resolution" is checked.

Thanks again for all your help...

Report · Feb 27, 2008

Try "Same As Source (No Color Management)"

Peter

Report · Feb 28, 2008

Hi there, I tried "Same As Source (No Color Management)" but it did the same thing as before--with a few of the lines of Garamond text looking bold.

I've tried quite a few different options, but only these options actually seem to have any effect:

1. Print from InDesign
looks good*
2. In InDesign: Print to PDF, then print from Acrobat *looks good*
3. In InDesign: Export to PDF, print from Acrobat
Print as Image checked *everything fuzzy*
3. In InDesign: Export to PDF, print from Acrobat
Print as Image unchecked *only a few lines fuzzy*

Report · Feb 28, 2008

A few lines fuzzy or bold sounds as if it might be a transparency flattening issue. Is there any transparency in the problem areas -- drop shadow, blend mode, anything at all?

Report · Feb 28, 2008

Hello,

I changed the original InDesign file to make it as simple as I could. It now has one text box. Within the text box is one word in BellGothic Blk BT, in color. Next are 5 lines of b&w Garamond text. The first line looks crisp, but the 4 lines after look bold and fuzzy when I export to PDF and then print from Acrobat. They all look crisp and good when I print to PDF and then print from Acrobat.

There is no transparency anywhere (that I can figure out). The Page Master is [none]. There is only one layer.

I did CTL-A in InDesign to select everything. I looked at "Effects" in the tool palette and it says "Normal" for everything, and Opacity is 100%.

????

Report · Feb 28, 2008

Can you package, zip, and post the file on a server somewhere?

Report · Feb 28, 2008

Hi, is there any chance I could email it to you? Otherwise, it might take a while to set up...

Thank you so much for all your help.

Report · Feb 29, 2008

You are welcome to mail it to spammercatch at comcast dot net.

The advantage to posting would be that more people will have a chance to download and have a look at it, so your odds of getting a really good, and fast, answer are increased.

Peter

Report · Feb 29, 2008

Hi Peter, you are right. I will try to look for a place to post it. Meantime, I am emailing you. Thanks again.

Report · Feb 29, 2008

Hello again,

Here's something I just tried that gave interesting results.

In the exported version of the PDF, from Acrobat, I did the following:

*Tools -> Advanced Editing -> TouchUp Text Tool

*Select one of the lines of text that is coming out bold and fuzzy.

*Right-click -> Properties

*Font: "Garamond"
change to "AGaramondPro-Regular"

*Click "Close"

*Select same line of text.

*Font: "AGaramondPro-Regular"
change back to "Garamond"

*Click "Close"

*Save

*Print

That line of text comes out crisp now.

Makes me think it's an issue with CID fonts.

????

Report · Feb 29, 2008

Or, is it multibyte fonts? Is there a difference between CID fonts and multibyte fonts? I am thinking the problem is with our printer driver, as Luke thought before.

Thanks again...

Report · Feb 29, 2008

I am having exactly the same problem that Andrea Matthews is. I have the same computer and software setup, and the same printer which I've also been using for the past year, although I just had a scanner driver installed over the weekend to scan from the printer.

I am working off InDesign files that I use all the time, just change text and resave. I haven't had this problem before with the same file, same fonts I've been using for the past year, it just started to happen a couple days ago. One thing I have noticed is that when I export to "smallest file size" as opposed to PDFx-3 I don't get the fuzzies or bolds.

Report · Feb 29, 2008

Andrea,

I just got back from school and took a look at what you sent.

Number one, you haven't used the same settings when exporting as distilling, and I don't know what they were in either case. Can you let us know. The distilled PDF (Printed to PDF) is in RGB, the exported is in CMYK.

Number two, I've printed the exported PDF to my PCL monochrome laser and my Xerox Phaser 790 which is a genuine postscript printer, and they both show jagged type, which is due to the color being only 95% black, and no emboldening anywhere.

Number three, I've exported a couple of PDFs myself, and they also show the font embedded in both regular and CID encoded subsets, which is not surprising since there are ligatures, but in my attempts there are only two subsets, one for the first line (not CID) and the CID subset for the remainder. In your export, the five lines are each a separate subset and text object. Your distilled version has three subsets, but only one text object, mine are also a single text object.

At this point I don't know if the differences in the my PDFs are due to settings or the font itself. My Garamond font is TrueType flavored OpenType, version 2.30 from Monotype. The actual filename is GARA.TTF.

Can you tell us what settings you are using to both export and print these PDFs? I must say, though, that I think your fuzzies are the color tint, and the bolding problems are probably the print driver since I don't see them here.

Report · Feb 29, 2008

I am only now learning about CID fonts and subsets...

I guess I am most concerned about the bold effect, which seems directly related to wherever there is a CID font. The text that is not bold looks okay to me.

I am now thinking pretty definitely that the problem is with the CID fonts, and I am following up with our printer provider.

I did notice that I could only select one line at a time with the exported version using the TouchUp Text tool. However, with the distilled version, I could select the whole thing at once. Is this caused by some kind of setting when I export?

Is there a way to make export not do CID fonts?

My Garamond font file name is: GARA.TTF and version 2.3
from Monotype. The icon has an "o" so I assume it's OpenType.

Thank you so much for your help. I have really learned a lot about fonts this week.

Report · Mar 01, 2008

CID encoding is used for characters and glyphs not included in the standard ASCII 256 character map, such as ligatures, ornaments, swashes and the like, in OpenType fonts. With older formats these extra characters required additional special fonts.

Support for this has been part of the Postscript specification for quite some time, but many applications (like Microsoft word)and some printer drivers are unable to properly process the font information with a variety of results.

You and I are using the same version of Garamond, so I would say that the number of text objects (what you can select at once with the touch-up tool)in the PDF must be a result of differences in the export settings we used. I used the press quality preset, and the same preset modified to Acrobat 1.5 compatibility, to try to match your output, but I didn't go further. My guess would be that you may have used the "Standard" preset when printing to PDF because I'm pretty sure that is the default unless you change it in the printer properties.

I saw absolutely no difference in the type between any of the samples on screen, and no differences in my prints from two different printers, but I can't test on your model because I don't own it. I'm also running ID 5.0.2 and Acrobat 8.1.2 on XP pro SP2, so I think it's fair to say the only significant difference in the tests is the printers.

Peter

Report · Jun 03, 2008

Hello. We have a Ricoh Aficio MP C2500 and have experienced completely random "fuzzyness" as well... We have experimented with all the settings mentioned here and even have completely flattened our PDFs in PS (set to cmyk) and seen the same problems.

The "fuzzyness" is nothing like I've ever seen. If you look very closely it's as if there are microscopic dots floating around the black text and line-art. I really think it's the printer and/or driver... We've had the 'technicians' come in multiple times and every time they say there is nothing wrong with the printer. The most frustrating part is that it's almost impossible to predict. The same exact work flow will produce sharp text/line art one day and not the next. We have even seen two text boxes on the same page one crisp the other fuzzy with identical font/settings/size EVERYTHING!

I've also seen the strange bold/regular effect as well. Again we've seen it sometimes happening on one page and not another with the text that is on the same indesign master page!! How can that be possible?

Report · Jun 03, 2008

> and even have completely flattened
> our PDFs in PS (set to cmyk) and seen the same problems.

Opening a PDF in Photoshop at low resolution, or even at high resolution
with anti-aliasing turned on, is a good way to make "fuzzy" text. I
don't think rasterizing PDFs is a good way to test this.

Are you experiencing this problem printing from Indesign, or printing
from PDF?

--
Kenneth Benson
Pegasus Type, Inc.
www.pegtype.com

Report · Jun 03, 2008

> at high resolution with anti-aliasing turned on

I'm sorry for not making this clear... Converted at 600dpi anti-aliasing = OFF.

> Are you experiencing this problem printing from Indesign, or printing
from PDF?

Both, Illustrator and Photoshop as well... COMPLETELY RANDOM. - I can't stress this enough. Less with PDF and more with AI.

I know what your envisioning in terms of 'fuzzy' via rasterization but this is a whole different monster. To elaborate the text is very sharp but there are microscopic dots at various densities all around the fonts/linework giving it a sort of 'haze'. I will pull out my 105mm macro lens, take a shot of it, and provide a link here... You'll see, it's not anything like AA or low res 'fuzz' It's... wack (considering the price tag on this printer)

Report · Jun 03, 2008

If you're getting it from Indesign PDFs as well as Indesign files
directly, does it show in the PDF on your monitor, or only on hard copy?

--
Kenneth Benson
Pegasus Type, Inc.
www.pegtype.com