Indesign not recognizing font by same name as other programs

Community Beginner ,
Mar 25, 2022 Mar 25, 2022

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Hi there,

 

I am currently running MacOS Mojave 10.14.6, with InDesign cs6. 

 

Our company is beginning to transition from QuarkXpress 2017 to IDcs6, so we purchased the plug-in program Markzware to convert all of our .qxp files into .idml files. Everything is running smoothly for the most part, but indesign is having trouble recognizing our body copy font as the same in quark and indesign. After converting the file, I open the IDML in indesign and the typical missing font error pops up, only the font is not technically missing. On quark, the font is just called 'Stone Serif' but when looking at it through indesign, it's called "ITC stone serif." On my system, however, the font family is just called 'Stone' and each of the different font styles are listed as 'StoneSer ....'

 

I found an article which states "the font you are looking for, uses a different internal font name than do QuarkXPress and/or InDesign, and the same font, under a slightly different name, will be available, referring to the exact same font" which is exactly the issue I'm having, but the article provides no solution on how to tell InDesign that the font it's reading is the same one as what it says is missing. 

 

I know that it's not a huge workaround to just use the "Find Fonts.." panel in Indesign and update all of our body text, but we are looking to convert hundreds of files from quark to indesign, so I'd like to see if theres a solution/a way that I can tell indesign to read the font in the same way it does for Quark, so that when I open the new .idml pages in Indesign, I don't have to update the font and style sheets every time I open a new document. 

 

It should be noted as well that it is only creating this issue for two of our fonts, Stone Serif and Matrix. It does not say the fonts are missing for other text we use on the page. 

 

Hopefully the screenshots below help illustrate this issue a bit better. I will also link articles I've already looked at so it's known what I've already tried to fix the issue. 

 

https://www.qppstudio.net/webhelp_xv4/fonts-installed-available-to-quarkxpress-and-indesign.htm

- this page technically is referring to their software, but it is where I saw the information about quark and indesign reading separate file names. 

https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/kb/error-fonts-currently-available-incopy.html

- tried everything from this thread to no avail. 

https://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/quick-tip-troubleshooting-font-problems-in-adobe-indesign--cms...

- tried everything here as well, and what's even weirder, is under the Library/Application Support/Adobe/ folder, I don't have a fonts folder, only the FontsRecommended and FontsRequired folders. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 28, 2022 Mar 28, 2022

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@alywitmer wrote:

Our company is beginning to transition from QuarkXpress (sic) 2017 to IDcs6

 

InDesign CS6 (released in 2012) is no longer available for purchase from Adobe. Any copies you find today are likely to be pirated and contain malware. Current plans for legal versions are available through Adobe from this site — click the appropriate tab.

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html

 

Jane

 

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 28, 2022 Mar 28, 2022

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Hi Jane, 

 

Thanks for your response, however, these are not new downloads of cs6, our office macs are from 2012 and have had Adobe CS6 on them for years. We are only transitioning now to allow more cross-compatibility with the elements we create in photoshop and illustrator. These computers are not capable of running creative cloud as they're still running Mojave 10.14.6. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 29, 2022 Mar 29, 2022

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I remember fixing this many years ago, in a brute-force kind of way. I can't recall all of the details, but I initially fixed it by editing the Stone fonts with Fontographer, I think, to make the family & style naming work across both platforms and both DTP packages. Then the graphic designers involved threw a fit about my editing of the font naming conventions (I'm sure that my dirty, dirty hacks were creating all kinds of problems for their workflow) so I instead used a bit of InDesign JS to automate font family & style name replacements on the InDesign side, and some automatic-font-replacement-tables in Quark. 

 

Sorry that I don't have any of the details at hand; it's been a long time. .

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 30, 2022 Mar 30, 2022

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Thank you so much for your response! I haven't had any luck trying to find anything online about it. Granted, I might not be wording the question properly to illicit the right search results, but most articles I've found just refer me to the find fonts command. I did consider trying to edit the font itself, especially because Adobe will stop supporting type 1/postscript in 2023, but we may just try to re-purchase a license for the stone serif font as opentype, which would fix that issue, but still doesn't quite resolve how to update all the indesign files at once. I'll have to do some more digging but your response is helping lead the way. At least I know now that somehow, someway, it is possible without doing "find font" on each document. I feel like there must be some way to do it without any coding/scripts, but I also know that when it comes to adobe, sometimes there isn't a user friendly way to do things. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2022 Mar 30, 2022

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Thank you so much for your response! I haven't had any luck trying to find anything online about it. Granted, I might not be wording the question properly to illicit the right search results, but most articles I've found just refer me to the find fonts command. I did consider trying to edit the font itself, especially because Adobe will stop supporting type 1/postscript in 2023, but we may just try to re-purchase a license for the stone serif font as opentype, which would fix that issue, but still doesn't quite resolve how to update all the indesign files at once.

 

You're maybe ten years too late to get good results for your search. I recall a few threads around here that covered this issue exhaustively, but that was maybe two generations of forum software ago, and I don't have the endurance to find 'em in the Internet Archive. 

 

Additionally, the way these errors show up in InDesign changes from version to version. I think that probably the mid-paragraph switch from Stone Serif to ITC Stone Serif was more than likely an artifact of the conversion from Quark to InDesign. If I'm right, you've probably bought the old Q2ID plugin, right? If Markzware was still supporting the tool you're using to do the conversions, then I bet he'd be the first person to ask. We could take apart one of your IDMLs in a forensic manner, and could document exactly what was going wrong, and maybe even come up with a fix. 

 

If I'm wrong, and you've bought a license for OmniMarkz, then contacting Markzware would be your first stop. After looking at your video (switching to ITC Stone in the middle of a sentence?) I feel confident that this is a converstion artifact. If I'm right that you're doing these conversions with the old, no-longer-supported Q2ID tool, or if you'd rather fix this thing yourself than file a bug report, then read on, because I have a few ideas for you.

 

One thing you can try is to try to make a "new" font. You could take your current T1 Stone Serif and edit its internal name (I think "typographic family name" but it's been a while, and also it's Type 1 so I might have zero memory of how the T1 terminology differs from the TT terminology) to be "ITC Stone Serif." The problem is that it's looking for a font with a different name, right? If the filename and TFN are different, then your OS should see it as a different font. Install both fonts, both fonts get used in a single document, and there's no pink highlighting. This requires no action in InDesign, and so might be the least scripty solution possible.

 

Alternately, you could use a script. There's lots of options, here. Peter Kahrel made a script that I use regularly (the Manage Missing Glyphs one), where it replaces any text with that pink highlighting with a font specified in the code. We could edit that script to make Stone Serif the default replacement font, and then you could fix any document with a single double-click. That's also the kind of thing that we forums regulars could do for you quite easily, so you wouldn't have to do any script development yourself. 

 

Lastly: I'm not going to dogpile on you with the rest of the fine posters here telling you that your hardware and software are obsolete and unsupported. Hell, I just shut down my Mirror Door G4 after using PageMaker 6.5 (to recover an ancient state form translation).  It is true that you should be looking to the future when you're making these plans. If you know that T1 support is going away, and that your old hardware will eventually fail, then you should be thinking on how to migrate your current workflow off of CS6 on Mojave onto something newer & easier to support. At that time, you're going to need to have some kind of script to replace your T1 Stone with an OTF Stone, and Every. Single. One. of your massive archive of documents will require font substitution & human proofing to ensure that changes in spacing or sidebearing or whatever have not caused reflow. You will not be able to automate this procedure (barring development of strong AI). You know it'll take months, maybe years, right? Might you not be best off starting to do this massive conversion project now? Build a workflow that requires a slow-but-steady investment of time & effort in migration of your archive to contemporary formats? Food for thought. 

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 30, 2022 Mar 30, 2022

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My apologies I was a bit unclear in my video; when I open the converted quark doc, it shows all of the body copy as a missing font. I was the one who changed part of it mid paragraph to show that indeed the two fonts are the same (to avoid the question of if they are slightly different), but forgot to mention that in the video (I had actually done a first video where I showed me change it, but messed it up so I started again).

 

We purchased the newest Q2ID plugin, and I was in contact with the IT support at Markzware the day we bought it (last Friday) but haven’t heard back after sending in one of the .idml files to inspect. I’ll be following up to see if they potentially have a solution, though I wasn’t sure if they would because it’s moreso related to indesign rather than the plugin, but I’m still holding out hope as this is definitely within their area of expertise. We also had an issue come up after converting the .qxp to .idml, the original .qxp file, when opened, causes quark to crash. But that’s another story for another day.

 

Because Adobe wont be supporting T1 soon, we’ve been discussing the alternative of just choosing a new body copy font, but from my understanding, we’d then still have to manually use find font to update all of our layouts, and then go in and adjust where needed if anything becomes overset. At that point, we’d probably just look into re-licensing a copy of stone serif that is an OT or TT file. Though, it sounds like by using the script you mentioned, we’d be able to do that pretty easily, whether we continue w/ stone serif, or pick out a new font to use. I’m nominally familiar with scripts (by that I mean I used one script many times, to layout yearbook portrait pages) so it sounds like it may be an easier option.

 

I’ll admit I’m not as familiar with mac as PC, so when it comes to trying to edit the internal name of the font, I’m not sure how I’d go about that on this computer. When I go into Library>font, the name is “StoneSerif” so I’m not sure where on the computer indesign is pulling “ITC stone serif” from. I know it must be the same file (because the font is only installed once) but I didn’t want to try doing anything to the files since I’m not sure if I’d cause errors in any other place.

 

When it comes to upgrades and looking to the future, I’m on the same page but unfortunately, it’s hard to get the rest of the team on that page. Not because they don’t want change, but it would be a huge financial investment that I’m not sure they’re ready to make, esp. considering they’re relatively fine with continuing to use quark. Additionally, prior to me starting work there, they had just gone through converting their old quark docs to open in the 2017 version, so I know my fellow production editor is not quite stoked on the idea of doing it all over again, but her and myself both prefer InDesign at the end of the day.

 

I haven’t worked there very long myself, but I can imagine based on my previous newsroom experience, extra money in the budget is probably slim to none, and since Adobe switched to a subscription model, we would have to pay yearly for at least 4 different CC subs (since it allows for up to 2 devices) rather than being able to buy the program outright. This would also require brand new macs for the office since our version of Mojave isn’t supported by CC. However, like you said, it is something that will have to be done eventually (unless they want to just stick with quark forever). I also knew going into this that regardless of how automated we could make it, it would still take time as we still actively refer back to files from 2019/2020/2021, and the amount of files is definitely up in the thousands, so I may just have to do my best to get them comfortable with the idea of taking the time to upgrade everything to something even better than cs6. Hopefully they'll go for it. Quark is fine, and we could probably upgrade to the 2020 version easier than upgrading to Adobe, but I miss some of those some small features that made things in InDesign so much easier.  Thank you so much again though for your timely and knowledgeable responses!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 01, 2022 Apr 01, 2022

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Okay, I see that we're both Longposters. 🙂 Let me try to keep this shorter:

 

1) Yeah, if it's 100% ITC Stone then it's not likely that it's a Markzware bug. I saw it switch from ITC Stone to Stone in your Youtube vid, which if it was done that way by you, then it's not good evidence for a conversion bug anymore.

 

2) The name I'm talking about is not the filename, you'd need a font editor to change its internal name. "Postscript name" is now what I recall as the font name you'd need to change, but the old Mini that has my old copy of Fontographer on it is in storage right now and hard to access. We can figure it out if you want to try the edit-the-font routine. That's as simple as renaming its internal Postscript name to the screen font name, as Brad showed us in his post below.

 

3) There's probably going to be no reflow if you buy an OTF of the Stone family, and we write/modify you a script to automate the replacement. You can never assume that the OTF will have exactly the same metrics as your T1, so there might be some reflow leading to overset text, ugly re-rag, that kind of thing. So if you decide to stick with CS6 for the next few years, you can continue using T1 fonts, and so maybe a font replacement script, and/or an edited T1 font, should work for you for the future. But you absolutely must assume that you need to eyeball every layout with the replacement font before you go to print. 

 

4) Which brings me to my last point: it's where I disagree with TSN and Brad and jane-e and all the regulars here who will tell you that you need to upgrade to CC and OTF fonts right away. Brad is basically right, when he says it's a waste of time to do this (fix font name replacements instead of just upgrading) now. I'm disagreeing with him even though he's right.

 

CC is expensive, and if you're seriously planning to keep 2012 Macs in your workflow, and planning on staying on CS6 for the foreseeable future, you're most likely not working with the kind of revenue stream that would make upgrading everything a cost-effective plan. Please note that two installs of CC per license doesn't mean that two people are licensed to use it. It's meant to cover e.g. one person's desktop and laptop. So you're looking not at four seats of CC, but eight. Plus all new Mac hardware, right? Lots of money. But if you're standardizing on CS6 now, because you prefer working in CS6 to Quark, then you must by default be planning for eventually moving to CC. If you are, then you must be planning on having the money to license all eight seats of CC plus new Mac M1 hardware. If you can't afford to do that now without hesitation... can you assume that you will be ready to do so in a few years? How much longer do you think you can keep ten-year-old Mac hardware running? How about five years from now? I tell you, keeping ye olde Mirror Door G4 running has not been a cost-effective thing for me to do. It's more a matter of it being a point of pride, for me, at this point.

 

Your long-term plan must include a migration strategy. Expect the price of CC seats to go up, over time, not down. Think about moving to CC sooner rather than later, or consider other alternatives, like Affinity Publisher, or perhaps becoming an Old Mac Hardware Wizard which you will need to be if you want to have your workflow rely upon aging Mac hardware. Also consider that it's getting harder and harder to re-install old CS apps, because Adobe is shutting off the old installation validation servers. So, if it ever comes to pass that you need to reinstall CS6 in the late 2020s or whatever, you can't necessarily assume Adobe will still have the servers up that you need to validate your installations. 

 

<looking back at yet another wordy post> Oh well, I did try to be terse. Good luck! Feel free to post more questions or ask me to edit Peter's old glyph-replacement script for you.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 01, 2022 Apr 01, 2022

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“you'd need a font editor to change its internal name “

I wouldn’t bother. The important pieces to all of this are the Outline fonts, which are the same no matter what the “screen” font are referring to. It makes your job doing the find/replace a bit harder and time consuming, but as you have found, once replaced, things are fine. So, don’t go changing the font’s internal name; that part is good.

From the screen grab, the OP might actually have the first generation of Stone (the clue being the font suitcase having “.t1” at the end). When first released in 1987, Stone’s screen fonts looked like this: (with the numbers 1, 2, 3 defining the different variations).

Screen Shot 2022-03-31 at 2.28.24 PM.png

This proved too silly so the screen fonts were redone in 1992 (to be as I had show in my previous grab.)

 

“You can never assume that the OTF will have exactly the same metrics as your T1, so there might be some reflow leading to overset text”

True, but from my experience, since I’ve been using the Stone OpenType versions since they were included on the Adobe Font Folio since it was released years ago, I’ve seen no reflow on my existing files. That being said, the OP WILL get reflow anyway because of the conversion from Quark to ID. That’s unavoidable as each handled type differently.
"Brad is basically right, when he says it's a waste of time to do this now. I'm disagreeing with him even though he's right”

Haha! Yup. I guess what I was trying to say, is that converting hundreds of files now might not be the best use of time, script or no script. Sure, at the very least convert them to ID, so you can deal with them when you need to going forward, but deal with the reflow and font replacement on a case by case basis when you need to. I wasn’t saying they should buy OTF now, but offered the warning of the possible necessity soon.

As far as why the OP are getting duplicate or weird name styles is that it was very easy to assign a style (like Bold or Italic) to a font that did not have one, or already WAS bold or italic. e.g. Quark allowed you to select Stone Sans Bold, then could assign Bold to that (so the file now wants “Stone Sans Bold Bold”, when in fact, it should be “Stone Sans Bold Plain”. From my previous experience with Q2ID, the plugin made some guesses at how to handle this. Ironically, opening a Quark file DIRECTLY in InDesign (which you can literally still do with v3 and v4 Quark files in CC2022!!) worked fine with no missing fonts at all.. (just the Alert that they were Type 1 fonts)...

Screen Shot 2022-03-30 at 9.49.38 PM.png

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 01, 2022 Apr 01, 2022

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"Brad is basically right, when he says it's a waste of time to do this now. I'm disagreeing with him even though he's right”

Haha! Yup. I guess what I was trying to say, is that converting hundreds of files now might not be the best use of time, script or no script. Sure, at the very least convert them to ID, so you can deal with them when you need to going forward, but deal with the reflow and font replacement on a case by case basis when you need to. I wasn’t saying they should buy OTF now, but offered the warning of the possible necessity soon.

 

Why, you were actually even right-er than I thought you were! 😄

 

Also thanks for explaining stuff I'd seen but never actually fixed; back in Ye Olden Days I never understood why post-Quark-conversion docs would show up in my Lotus Notes inbox for formatting in InDesign CS with font names like "Stone Sans Bold Bold." Interesting stuff, that I hopefully won't have to think about ever again. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 01, 2022 Apr 01, 2022

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@alywitmer wrote:

...since Adobe switched to a subscription model, we would have to pay yearly for at least 4 different CC subs (since it allows for up to 2 devices) rather than being able to buy the program outright.


 

To clarify the subscription terms: one user can activate Creative Cloud on two computers and use one at a time (i.e., desktop, laptop or home, work). If you have eight users, then you need eight licenses, as the licenses cannot be shared.

 

In addition, you never buy a software application outright. You purchase a license to use it and are limited by the terms and conditions of the license.

https://www.allbusiness.com/the-difference-between-buying-and-licensing-software-928-1.html

 

Jane

 

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LEGEND ,
Mar 29, 2022 Mar 29, 2022

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Just as heads up - worth thinking about future plans. (1) New Macs won't be able to run Mojave (2) Later systems won't be able to run CS6 (3) One day Macs need replacing. I realise this may be well outside the problems it's up to you to solve, but it's worth knowing.

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 30, 2022 Mar 30, 2022

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Thanks for your response. I don't forsee the company replacing all of the computers any time soon until it becomes absolutely vital or apple stops supporting them. In terms of upgrading from cs6 to CC, it's less of a worry because all of the files are being converted to .idml so we will still be able to open them in CC. 

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 30, 2022 Mar 30, 2022

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I created a video illustrating what the issue is at hand a bit better than my typed description: 

 

https://youtu.be/a29GiOtKyHk

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2022 Mar 30, 2022

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A bit of history is in order here in regards to the Stone family of fonts which might explain things a bit.

 

But before that, you are going to a lot of trouble for nothing to do this now because, come January 2023, your existing Type 1 fonts (which is what your Stone fonts are) will no longer be usable, so this whole undertaking will only be good as long as you never need to open these CS6 converted files in anything Adobe releases after January.

 

Soooo, back to Stone.

When Stone first came out, in the late 80s, it was packaged as all Mac Type 1 fonts were, with a Font Suitcase and the Outline fonts. Within the Font Suitcase, were the Screen Fonts, which contained the spacing information/font metrics. like so...:

stone.png

So here's where the naming is confusing. Quark (and other programs back then) used the names of the actual Screen Fonts in their menus (the files on the right of my screengrab), which did not include the initial ITC moniker.. that was only on the name of the enclosing Font Suitcase.

Fast forward to now, and modern font managers don't need the Type 1 screen fonts separately anymore... they read the data from them and then store it internally, but now list everything according to the "Family Name" (which in this case is the name of the Font Suitcase.. i.e. "ITC Stone Informal", etc. hence the different naming.

Since this naming is different than what's in your Quark file, even though they refer to the EXACT SAME Type 1 Outline font, it will show up "missing" until you replace it manually.

 

So, what to do: As I said, it's literally a waste of time to do this now. If you are serious about this, you need to invest in the OpenType versions of Stone (unfortunately, and weirdly, Adobe does not offer them in their Cloud fonts.. you have to BUY them from a reseller like fonts.com. Be warned: it won't be cheap)... and they have been renamed to "ITC Stone Informal Std...", etc etc, but they are a direct replacement for the Type 1 versions.

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