Outline view in InDesign is missing

[Guest]

Hi

I wanted to post a feature is missing in InDesign CS3, View Outlines that we have in Illustrator is missing in InDesign.

I was shocked to see it is not exicst, what Adobe has the say about that?

It's a must feature !!!

[Guest]

I never said I was going to try to create vector drawings in ID.  Why would I want to do that if I can do that in Illustrator?  Please reread my comments. I simply said, "You can edit vector shapes, etc".  That one of the features they were touting when they first released ID, because Quark had no provision to do this whatsoever at the time.  This was one of the original selling points of ID, and one of the reasons why many of us felt it would be more logical to use ID instead.  It just means that for the occasional simple box or polygonal shape, you actually have the option to adjust the position of a node or two without having to edit the placed AI file!  It's not about creating an entire vector drawing from scratch, but thanks for your expert opinion John.  I've only been doing this for about 20 years.  Try not to skim so much.  My points are very valid.

Using outline mode has nothing to do with creating vector objects in ID.  It simply has to do with being able to align things quickly and easily by being able to view the outlines of the bounding boxes, along with your template underneath (also in outline form).  You get infinite precision.  That's all I'm talking about here! 

I'm confident you'll see more people show up on this forum who understand what the heck I'm talking about.  You must be a friend of Peter's!  LOL

[Peter Spier]

Ferroid wrote:

I never said I was going to try to create vector drawings in ID.  Why would I want to do that if I can do that in Illustrator?  Please reread my comments. I simply said, "You can edit vector shapes, etc".  That one of the features they were touting when they first released ID, because Quark had no provision to do this whatsoever at the time.  ...

It just means that for the occasional simple box or polygonal shape, you actually have the option to adjust the position of a node or two without having to edit the placed AI file!

You've lost me with this comment. Though not nearly as sophisticated or flexible as ID's, Quark certainly had editable vector shapes as early as version 4. At no point has ID ever had, or claimed to have, the abiltiy to edit a placed AI file directly.

[Guest]

Yikes!  Ok, one thing at a time...

First of all, regarding the comment that I lost you on... that was caused by one simple typo. One word was wrong and it changed the meaning of the entire sentence.  I noticed it after I had made the post, but I thought you'd still get the gist of what I was saying.  I meant to use the word "a" instead of "the".

Therefore the sentence should have read, "...without having to edit a placed AI file".   See how that changes the meaning of the sentence entirely?   Sorry for the error.  I see that your spelling is always perfect.... nary an error to be found LOL.   (Just messin' with ya... I know you're super busy trying to respond to all these ongoing discussions).

That aside, I'm glad to see that you're paying close attention to what I'm saying! 

In regards to using placed files... it's a shame that this discussion has completely gone down that road.  After working with Quark since the early '90s, I'm only accustomed to using placed files, and that's obviously the only sensible way to work. Quark and ID are simply layout/assembly apps, and there's no need to be creating anything in these programs other than (as you say), the occasional rule line or simple filled shape.

But if you read my text even more closely, you'll see that this is exactly what I said.  The first part of my sentence reads, "It just means that for the occasional simple box or polygonal shape, you actually have the option to adjust the position of a node or two..."

I don't see how you therefore get the impression from that comment that I would  be trying to build actual vector artwork in ID.  There is no need for you (or John) to waste a minute of your collective time lecturing me on the downfalls of this type of workflow!  LOL  This is getting absolutely crazy.  You sound like a couple of grannies!  OF COURSE placing artwork is the only way to go!!  This discussion is purely about the pros and cons of VIEW OUTLINES mode, as per the TOPIC of this string.

But that aside, I see that even you are a little confused as to why ID would have allowed users to copy and paste very complex vector artwork directly from AI to ID. That throws a real wrench in the works doesn't it?  If ID was intended to be strictly a layout/assembly app relying on placed files, why would they then allow this possibility?  It's only going to serve to give new users (who never had the benefit of being thoroughly drilled into using placed files as were you, I and John) the idea that, hey, we might as well just create our drawings directly in ID!!   What fun!!!!  Oh boy oh boy! 

Now you and John can really have some folks to lecture!   Good luck with that!!

As for the vector capabilities in Quark 4... that was actually added in response to ID's first release, which included this feature.  Earlier versions of Quark didn't have that capability.   That was part of their effort to fight back!

NOW THAT WE'VE GOT ALL THAT OUT OF THE WAY we can get back to the initial discussion. 

Just to clarify, one more time, for the record (John are you listening?), I am not suggesting that we need View Outlines mode so that we can make ID "just like AI".  I'm simply saying that it's a way to quickly see where all your bounding boxes fall relative to your trim marks or template details.  It's like, you're staring at the screen up close, you're trying to adjust positions of a stack of picture boxes relative to your measurements.... you don't want to be looking at boxes full of content or fills while you're doing this, and you don't want to have to contend with stroke widths.... you just want to eliminate all that confusion quickly, line things up accurately, and then switch back to preview mode.  It's just an efficient way of working.  What else can I say?  Plenty of apps have optional ways of doing things, which cater to various users' preferences.  I have assembled hundreds of packaging layouts in AI over the years, and having the option to View Outlines is absolutely indispensible.

With all due respect, I don't believe you've done a lot of AI layouts which are destined for print, otherwise (as I have said), you would totally understand just how valuable, efficient and handy the View Outlines mode is.

Anyhow, it's very simple, and it really doesn't warrant this much discussion.  It's clear that more and more people are wondering why this was never added to ID, ESPECIALLY when you consider that Adobe is perfectly willing to allow us to paste AI vector files directly into ID.  (Maybe you should go over there and give those programmers heck).

As a highly experienced professional designer/layout artist, etc. etc., I contend that View Outlines mode would be a very practical addition to ID, and I would like to remind you that the only reason I even joined this discussion was because I saw you ripping into that poor Talgut guy, who was also simply stating the obvious.  And there are many more besides him, and there will continue to be many more.

Being able to turn off all the fills and strokes instantly, and simply see your pure mechanical structure relative to your template in an instant is super handy, especially when you have stacks of bounding boxes.  Oh sure, you can hold Shift and start clicking through them, or you can make sure every box is on it's own layer so that you can click layers on and off in order to see where everything sits, but why  go through all those steps when you should be able to simply VIEW OUTLINES.  That's my whole point!!

Further, how hard could it be for the Adobe app developers to simply make it so that we don't see the fills, content and strokes.  I can't imagine that would be a huge programming issue, especially when you consider that they've made it so that ID can totally accept pasted AI files!

I only brought up these issues of ID being similar to AI in some ways because back in the beginning, at the inception of ID, that was one of the ways it was being touted.  That was one of the angles they were using to woo us all over from Quark.  Don't you or John remember any of that?

Anyhow, I've spent way too much time discussing this already.  You're clearly very set in your ways, and it's because you've never spent years doing print layouts in AI.  We did that often, instead of using Quark, largely because we were able to View Outlines in AI.  Why build your packaging in Quark if you can build it in AI and ensure super precision accuracy?  We only needed Quark for multi-page files.

Dang I sure hope some other old timers stumble across this thread.  I need some backup here!!  This is hard work.  You are one obstinate fella!  LOL

[Peter Spier]

I think you have your history wrong. I was working doing prepress when ID was released, I'm pretty sure, and Quark 4 was already out. But I'm old enough that my memory after ten years is a little fuzzy.  And who was touting ID as being similar to AI? I certainly don't remember any marketing with that thrust beyond some possibile user interface similarities, i.e, if you knew Illustrator, ID should be easy to learn.

I do know how valuable outline view can be in Illy, even, as you say, it's not an application I spend a lot of time with. But once the hillustration is complete, I don't see how outlines are any longer of benefit in positioning a frame for placed art (you did say we're talking about placed content, right? And I don't get the same difference in meaninig that you ascribe to "a" vs. "the" in your previous statement -- it's still a placed file. Perahps I'm just dense, which is why I'd love to see a screen shot of one of your layouts where you think outlines would help you.

You know that AI now allows for multiple artboards so you can do multiple page layouts directly, right? Sounds to me you might be happier staying in Illy than doing the layouts in ID. What advantage does ID have for you at this point?

You keep referring to wanting to look at your template. I understand the use of templates in AI for tracing and so forth, but it isn't a commonly used paradigm with anyone I know in ID. Would turning layers on or off in the placed file help you at all? I know that's not the same thing, just wondering.

And I still don't think I ripped into anyone. I asked Talgut, just as I've asked you, to provide some concrete usage examples. I'm actually pretty open-minded about this stuff. At the moment I can't see a case, beyond your simply stating that there is one, that would make me think there is enough demand for expenditure of resources to add this feature. Why are you so hesitant to convince me otherwise?

[Peter Spier]

Maybe I have another suggestion you'd find valuable. Once in a blue moon I get asked to "reproduce" something like a letterhead that no longer exists as a layout file, only a paper print, or as a PDF, but it needs significant rebuilding. In cases like that I often recreate component pieces in Illustrator, then use the PDF or a scan on a background layer as a guide for positioning in ID. To allow myself to see both the newly placed art and the template behind I usually temporarily adjust the opacity of the new art. 100% precision is seldom the goal (or necessarily even possible given the incoinsistencies in scanning and the possibilities of changed content), but it can be faster for rough placement than trying to measure off a print and add guides.

[Guest]

I attached a file so you could see what I mean when I talk about a "template".  This is a typical template for CD packaging.  I've made a jpeg just so I could post it on this forum, but it's actually an AI file and it's either placed or pasted on the bottom layer in our ID document.  We then build everything on layers over top of this.

There's no point in me showing you one of these actual packaging layouts with content, because it's not going to make any difference.  Of course everything can be done without using View Outlines mode. I never said it couldn't. 

I'm just saying that using View Outlines is a different way of working, and it really should be an option in ID.   But if you're not used to doing press jobs in AI, (or any kind of complex illustrative work for that matter), you'll never know what I'm talking about.  Once you get used to hitting that Command-Y while you're working in order to quickly see exactly where everything is, without being hindered by all the colors, content, stroke widths, etc., you'll never want to go back, believe me.  Plenty of graphic artists will vouch for this.  If you've never had the benefit of using this tool on a regular basis, you won't truly understand how important it is.

As I mentioned in my last post, prior to ID, we didn't always do every press layout in Quark. Plenty of them were done in AI (and Freehand too of course).... that's the way it was back then... it was kind of a yin yang thing. It was great to be able to View Outlines in order to ensure absolute accuracy and line things up perfectly.

Back in the early 00s, the word going around the industry was that ID was like AI in a lot of ways, and if you're already good at AI, you should be able to transition easily to ID (just to echo what you stated in your second last post).   You may well say that Adobe wasn't actually making these statements... but whoever started it, that was the buzz on the streets.  It was being projected by early converts as the reason why we should all make the switch.  Nobody ever said, "oh you should switch to ID because it's way different than AI and it's really hard to learn".

And sure enough, here we are in 2012, and vector editing certainly looks very similar in ID doesn't it?... with the exception of the very vital tool View Outlines.  Of course there are plenty of other AI tools that didn't make it over either, for obvious reasons, but View Outlines is different because it's purpose is actually more about being precise and organizing things on your artboard.... which would seem to me to be a major feature to have in any layout program, n'est-ce pas?  I would have thought that it would be obvious to include this feature in ID, which is why (as I have previously stated), I was absolutely stunned to discover that it's not!  (Just as I was equally stunned to discover that we couldn't actually paste an AI drawing in the first versions of ID... but that got fixed didn't it?).

You're wondering why we don't just continue doing these packaging jobs in AI.  The reason is because more and more printers and manufacturers are specifically requesting ID files now, so we have no choice but to get on the bandwagon.

You didn't exactly "rip in" to Talgut... I'm exaggerating a bit of course, but your responses were to imply that as long as he could not give you a good example, then his comment wasn't worthy.  That's not the issue.   Once again, I will repeat myself and say that anything can be constructed without View Outlines.... we all know that.  Using View Outlines is just a way of working which allows you to cut to the chase and line things up accurately, very quickly, and it would be great to see this implemented into ID. 

Anyhow, that's about all I can say on this subject (I do feel as if we're going around in circles here).  I just wish there was another AI expert on this thread who could step in and take over for me.  I'm exhausted from composing these posts.  I really don't have any more time to discuss it.

I've made my point.  Now all we can do is wait and see who else speaks up.

If you're wondering why I waited till 2012 to bring this up, it's because I'm typical of many old school guys who are still in the process of "turning the boat around" and trying to fully commit ourselves to ID.  You have to understand, we devoted our lives in the '90s to learning Quark inside out, back to front, top to bottom... it's hard to just cast all that knowledge aside in favor of your app. 

BTW, using layers (turning them on and off etc.) does help in trying to position things.  It's a good workaround for sure, but there ain't nothin' like Command-Y.  😉   It's the one and the only.   If ID had Command-Y, it would definitely be truly "better than Quark" once and for all.

[John Hawkinson]

You're wondering why we don't just continue doing these packaging jobs in AI.  The reason is because more and more printers and manufacturers are specifically requesting ID files now, so we have no choice but to get on the bandwagon.

Still not getting it.

Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout sufficient?

Alternatively, copy-and-pasting the vector data from AI to ID as long as you are under the convert-to-PDF threshold?

[Guest]

John Hawkinson wrote:

Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout sufficient?

John - I've just read your question about 10 times and I'm still not getting it.  Did you forget to use one word, like maybe the word "not" some place in that sentence?

Further, with all due respect, I get the feeling that you still don't understand the gist of this discussion.  It's about the View Outlines option.  It's not about how to place docs in ID. 

Quite frankly my friend, I've written absolutely everything I can think of on this subject, and I'm spent.  I take it that you also are not an AI expert, otherwise you wouldn't even question the value of View Outlines and how it could be so beneficial to ID... it's an indispensable tool.  You guys never use it on a regular basis, so how would you know?  (But I have to wonder how you can argue so vehemently about something you're really not familiar with... but I guess with 4,154 posts, this is what you like to do, so maybe that accounts for it.)

If you've got a minute, please re-read my posts, hopefully without skimming this time, and you'll start to see what it is I'm talking about.  Once again, my apologies for the "emotional" remarks included herein.

Thanks.  I really gotta run.  Let's just wait to see if any other experienced graphic artists pick up on this thread.

[John Hawkinson]

Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout sufficient?

John - I've just read your question about 10 times and I'm still not getting it.  Did you forget to use one word, like maybe the word "not" some place in that sentence?

Sorry, terribly sorry. Indeed, I meant "Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout not sufficient?"

Further, with all due respect, I get the feeling that you still don't understand the gist of this discussion.  It's about the View Outlines option.  It's not about how to place docs in ID. 

Well, yes. That's kind of what I meant when I said, "still not getting it."

I wouldn't consider myself an Illustrator Expert, but I think everyone I work with would. I absolutely understand the value of View Outlines -- in Illustrator. Like Peter, I am extremely puzzled why anyone would want to work with paths in InDesign to the degree to which View Outlines in InDesign would be useful.

(But I have to wonder how you can argue so vehemently about something you're really not familiar with... but I guess with 4,154 posts, this is what you like to do, so maybe that accounts for it.)

This is about the fourth time you have, in my opinion, crossed the line of politeness. That kind of speech is inappropriate in this forum.

[Guest]

You guys are Brits aren't you?  I just got a sense of that.

John, I really don't want to appear rude, and I apologize profusely (as usual) if it seems that way, but after everything I've written, it's very frustrating to see that you still have no clue what it is I'm getting at.  I've gone to great lengths to explain it from every possible angle I can think of, and yet you still come back with these comments that seem to have no bearing on the points I've made, hence my frustration.  I'll refrain from quoting Jethro Tull here!  😉

I've practically written a thesis on this forum already over the last couple of days.  LOL

Further, you (as did Peter) readily admit that you are not an expert in AI (which I had already surmised anyway, based on your comments), so you truly don't understand how it is we use View Outlines, and thus you can never truly imagine how it would be beneficial to the workflow.  It's not something we use "every once in a while".  View Outlines (Command-Y) is an integral part of the workflow... we're constantly switching back and forth.  It just allows you to clear the deck and see the actual skeletal structure... but why should I continue to keep trying to explain this to you when you've never used it and you're convinced that it's unnecessary?  This is an absolutely pointless discussion.  A complete waste of time. (I sincerely hope that's not a rude comment too, and I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic in saying that).

You need to hear from others who are making the transition to ID after years of alternating between Quark and AI in the past to set up print jobs, and who are extremely accustomed to this tool and would like to see it implemented into ID.  

Besides, I'm too cheeky for this forum anyway!   😉  I really must be off now.   All the best!

[John Hawkinson]

You guys are Brits aren't you?  I just got a sense of that.

No. In fact Peter and I both live in Massachusetts.

John, I really don't want to appear rude,

Not to belabor the point, but don't make snarky comments about other people's intentions.

Further, you (as did Peter) readily admit that you are not an expert in AI (which I had already surmised anyway, based on your comments), so you truly don't understand how it is we use View Outlines

No. We get it. We use View Outlines all the time. In Illustrator.

But we don't use InDesign to do a job we would do in Illustrator.

And the question we have asked you, over and over in this thread, is why you would want to do that kind of job in InDesign.

Why don't you answer it?

The one time we got close to an answer you said that "printers and manufacturers" wanted you to send InDesign files. But that's not a sufficient answer -- what is wrong with an InDesign file with an Illustrator file placed in it? That is how I would do this kind of work, and I believe how Peter would do it as well.

.. but why should I continue to keep trying to explain this to you when you've never used it and you're convinced that it's unnecessary?  This is an absolutely pointless discussion.  A complete waste of time. (I sincerely hope that's not a rude comment too, and I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic in saying that).

No, it's quite rude. We both use View Outlines regularly (at least I do and I'm fairly sure Peter does).

So to say we have "never used it" without having asked us is rude, as well as foolish.

[John Hawkinson]

I should add:

why should I continue to keep trying to explain this to you when [...] you're convinced that it's unnecessary?

We're not "convinced it is unncessary."

We are not convinced it is necessary.

And you're not doing a good job of convincing us, by showing even a single compelling use case.

[Guest]

I've written everything I'm going to write.  All the information is in my posts.  If you don't get it, there's nothing more I can say.  You guys rule the roost here. 

Is there any way I can get my account erased?

[Peter Spier]

Ferroid,

I'm really sorry you feel like you've been beaten up. I know that wasn't my intention. I had some hope the you were going to show us an example, but I'm afraid I don't see any explanation of where seeing outlines is valuable in what you posted. I'd be setting up artboards in Illustrator the size of each panel, then placing in ID using smart guides to center in each block. I see no need, in fact, to even have that template behind the art other than convenience for seeing which panel is which.

Since you brought up "Further, you (as did Peter) readily admit that you are not an expert in AI" I'm going to turn this around on you. John and I are both quite expert in the use of InDesign (and I was a Quark power user before I made the switch for production work at ID 2.0 -- version 1 wasn't really ready for prime time). You keep bringing up how you work in Quark and Illustrator. ID is neither of those programs. If you think the only thing that would make ID superior to Quark is the addition of a view outlines mode, I guess you probably haven't really become comfortable in the ID paradigm (I freely admit I'm lost most times now when I have to work on a Quark file because I've goten so used to being able to do things without opeing a dialog of some sort to make any change at all, and I stopped upgrading Quark at version 6, though I've had the "pleasure" of using version 9 when helping another client of one of my printers. I could have completely rebuilt his entire file in ID in the time it took to scale the images and clean up his Quark file.) I think the industry, in general, has spoken about which layout application is going to be the leader going forward, and ID was never intended, or marketed, as a substitute for a full featured vector editor like Illustrator. ID is a layout application with some word processing capabilities and some vector editing capabilities for the convenience of users who need to simple word processing or vector editing tasks, but is not intended to subsume the entore functions of dedicated applictations, and very few users of InDesign, if these forums are any sort of market sample, would want ID to get more bloated duplicating these types of features.

[Peter Spier]

Oh, I got so caught up I forgot to make my other point...

"All the information is in my posts.  If you don't get it, there's nothing more I can say." One thing Iearned early on as a spouse, parent, and teacher is that if the person to whom you are explaining someting doesn't understand what you are saying, repeating the same words, even at a louder pitch, doesn't help. You need to find another way to get your point across. I've seen you repeat over and over that this is an obviously desirable addition, but not once have you led me step by step though what seems obvious to you, but is clear as mud to me.

[Guest]

Man you guys are brutal. LOL 

I guess I'm not good at explaining it... which seems odd because I always fancied myself as quite eloquent and succinct.  Oh well.

Anyhow, we'll just have to leave it at that.  The only way you guys could be convinced of the benefits of View Outlines would be if you yourselves were already into using that feature extensively in AI.  There's no point in me exhausting myself trying to explain it on this forum, even though you suggest that during any heated discussion, one should try using another example rather than repeating the same thing... good advice, but that won't work here for the simple fact that no matter what I were to put forth, you guys will obviously be able to show me how it can be done in ID without using View Outlines.

In fact anything can, and is, being done all the time in ID without this feature, so View Outlines is clearly not a necessary addition to the app.  But I'm not talking about it as being an absolute necessity... it's simply a 'method of working'.  If that seems ambiguous to you, I can only state that many, many apps offer several alternate ways of 'getting the job done'.  People who are used to using View Outlines will swear by it as an essential tool, and they will know exactly what I'm talking about.  That's why you are getting other inquiries about this, and you will continue to.  It's not just me!

I really honestly have to sign out now on this subject, and we'll just have to wait and see who else shows up, and if they can offer any alternate way of explaining this whole issue.  I suppose I'll receive email notifications if there are any further discussions, so it'll be interesting to see what transpires.

Meanwhile I'm going to take another look at Smart Guides and see if I can find a way to get them to cover for all the things I miss about View Outlines.

That was quite a discussion.  Phew!!

Meanwhile, how about those Pats!  What a game!  Woohoo!  Gotta take care of Flacco next week and then on to the SB!

[John Hawkinson]

Ferroid, are you just ignoring the things we wrote?

The only way you guys could be convinced of the benefits of View Outlines would be if you yourselves were already into using that feature extensively in AI.

I've told you several times:

We do use View Outlines extensively in Adobe Illustrator!!!

[Guest]

John, no need to get emotional and start yelling at people.  Just try to stay calm.  We're trying to have a polite discussion here.

You may have used View Outlines for certain files you're creating in AI, but you're not way into AI to the point where this tool has become an automatic reflex that you rely on constantly throughout your work, so you won't have the same level of appreciation for it that I do.  Further, I can guarantee that you're nowhere near my level of expertise in AI.  I'm not just some guy talking through my hat on your forum.  I'm a world class illustrator (and I hope I can say that without incurring your wrath yet again).  I've attached my latest piece which I just completed last night just to give you an example. 

That aside, please accept my sincerest apologies (once again) if I've upset you in any way, or if you feel that I haven't "absorbed" the points you're trying to make. You guys are doing a great job over there in NE, and I will endeavor to try to learn to use ID better in the future.  I concede that you guys are the true experts in ID.  My expertise is more with AI, PS and 3D anim anyway, so I probably shouldn't even have signed in to this forum.  You guys truly know your stuff, inside and out.  That's terrific.

I really have to disconnect myself from this forum now though because I have a ton of work to do here, so if you can please refrain from pushing this issue any further, it will be greatly appreciated.  If there's any way we can get my account deleted I would really appreciate that too.  Let me know how that can be done. Thanks! 

[faizyrehmani@gmail.com]

Well I must agree with the fact that in design should have outline feature. Due to the reason that adobe products have been successfull for the similarity of things. Like adobe photoshop has the same features as ai. It is this similarity of tools between different softwares gave an edge to ai on freehand. Its like you are new to id and you don't have the basic option you have become accustomed to using for many years. This kind of things make people move away from the softwares.

Can any one tell me what are effects doing in illustrator dont we have all of them in photoshop (even more which also show even better there) and can create them and place that image in illustrator? Its due to the reason that when ur creating somthing its nice to have these added features which increase productivity and keeps synergy.. Hope to see outline in next version.. hopefully..

[Peter Spier]

I can't say that I recall Photoshop having a View Outlines mode, either.

[John Hawkinson]

Ferroid:

Just to clarify, one more time, for the record (John are you listening?), I am not suggesting that we need View Outlines mode so that we can make ID "just like AI".

Yes.

You should be much less emotional, and much more concrete, and much more succint.

Thanks.

[Guest]

You're right John.  Good points.  My apologies.

[Peter Spier]

Ferroid,

I get the sense that you think that somehow I work for or speak for Adobe. That is not the case. Everyone here, unless you see an Adobe Employee badge, is just an ordinary user like yourself (though most of the regulars have been using ID quite a bit longer than you have, I'd guess). I've been a particiapnt here for about 10 years (since I switched my procution work from Quark to ID at version 2.0), and a Moderator/Community Professional for around 3. Besides working as a freelance designer I've working in newspaper and magazine advertising and layout, as a prepress technician for traditional and digital printers, and I taught page layout using InDesign at the college level for a time. I've seen quite a lot of different sorts of files, some very clever, and some absolutely horrid, and I've often been tasked with figuring out why they won't print.

I'll caution you a bit about assuming that pasting art from Illustrator is a good workflow (and frankly, I don't recall when that was added becasue it isn't something I find useful, in general). Simple art will come in fine, but once you reach a certain threshhold of complexity you will wind up pasting uneditable PDF, which sort of defeats your intentions. Placing the art and linking back to AI may seem to be a pain, but at least for me it has inevitabley turned out to be a better technique, even if the paths would remain editable in ID if pasted. That's because sooner or later I find I need to re-use the art in a new project, and that usually means at some point I'm going to need to edit it in at least two places. With linked files I can edit the original and all the places I've used that file will update.

I suspect part of the reason I don't see the value to an outlines mode is precisely because I work with placed, not pasted, vector art, along with placed Photos. Very little other than text or filled shapes and an occasional drawn path is directly editable in ID in my layouts -- it's more like a giant pasteboard where I assemble the puzzle pieces. As such, having a bunch of wireframed rectangles represneting the frames where the art was placed doesn't help me at all.  I'm guessing you are treating ID as some sort of super set of AI, and I think that would be as much a mistake as thinking ID is Quark. Many new converts have a period of adjustment where they essentially try to "translate" how they would do something in another application, especially Quark, into ID. I know because it happend to me and almost everyone I know who has made the switch over the years. The trick is to try to stop thinking in terms of what you used to do, and start thinking in terms of how ID does each task. You'll find there are some things that you may not be able to do as easily or even at all (though as I said, when I used Quark I don't recall a wireframe or outlines mode), but the tradeoff is there are many more things that are much easier to accomplish, or even newly possible where they can't be done anywhere else.

[rpollack-2]

I wounldn't mind seeing this feature in InDesign. We do a lot of line-art illustrations. One of the nice features of ID CS4 is that I can "copy" and "paste" a line art illustration from Illustrator directly into ID. I don't have to keep or link to the Illustrator file. When I paste the line art into ID, it comes in as a group. I can ungroup and edit the line art. If my line weight in the illustration is set to say 0.5pt and I need to edit the line art, I go to 'outline' view in Illustrator, I can see exactly where my lines intersect or terminate, etc. If I need to edit that graphic (now vector lines in ID) I would like to see the path outlines.

This would be very helpful so I don't have to keep two files, and also so I can edit all in one application.

RPP

[marcthiele]

Where can I vote for this feature? 😉