Copy link to clipboard
Copied
This seems like an obvious one but I'm missing it in searches, other than in a post where it was requested as a feature: Is there a way to set the desired average min/max character count, inclusive spaces, per line?
In a book layout with body text where we're otherwise pleased with all its variables, I beleive we need a way to push H&J to help get a desired 84.8 avg. number of characters per line, based on a Taschen model, in a column 13.4 cm wide, fully justified, that's now averaging 87.8 characters. Basically needing ~3 characters less per line, (a subtle but still signifnicant dfference in relaxing readability for this particular layout).
Just widening tracking is too much of a brutal global action, aesthetically/typographically, in what it does to the appearance of words as units. I believe we need mostly the word spacing to do the work, and it would be great if this could be governed in part by a setting that aims for a desired character count per line.
If not, then what works as an alternative means to govern and monitor line character count? Kind thanks ——
I believe we need mostly the word spacing to do the work
Hi @Typothalamus, You can use the Justification settings to force more word space without tracking the letter spacing by setting the Desired Word Spacing to something more than 100%:
Then you could then check the average character count per fully justified lines via scripting. Something like this:
var p = app.activeDocument.selection[0].paragraphs;
var lnc = 0;
var c = 0;
var ln;
for (var i = 0; i < p.length; i++){
ln = p[
But what if there are a lot of single line paragraphs...
Then they would get skipped— @Typothalamus wants to know what the average character count is for the full measure.
This is a better average for the full measure:
Than this, which is including the last lines:
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
It doesn't exist as an InDesign feature and I can't say as I've ever heard it requested or discussed.
It could be enabled as a script or set of scripts, but I think only as a manual (on call) operation and I am not quite sure how a runtime interface would be best incorporated. It might need a full plugin with support code beyond what scripting can bring, and a control/info pane.
But mostly, I have to ask: what do you see as the need or purpose for such a feature?
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Thanks for responding. More detail was added to the post before seeing your reply, but essentially, in typographical theory and fundamentals, there's an established ideal range of characters per line for optimal readability in body text, and this, despte all the myriad font choices, layouts and other variables, still holds due to unchanging physiology, arm length, avg distance to reading surface, etc. Typically no more than 80 characters per a line's measure is acceptabale. In some cases it can be pushed out a tad, but in several years of visual tests on the current book in development I'm on, we know that an extra 3-4 characters above about 84 is detrimental and beyond the limit.
Pictured below is a popular Taschen series book used as a model, 13.4 cm wide column, Scala Sans, likely 10 pt, yielding an avg 84.8 characters per line. Laid atop the bottom half is a scale printout of our text, same column width (not it Scala but Calluna Sans, 9.9 pt, tracked 1 unit wide), averaging 87.8 characters a line, 3 characters more.
As a visual test, covering up 3 characters on either side brings the line — suprisingly so — into a more comfortable readability. This assessment follows hundreds of hours of review, and rests on well-established theory.
Some options available include wider tracking and fractionally increasing point size. Both are visually unappealing here with the former disrupting word unity, and the latter giving too much weight and darkness on the page to the text block for us, relative to all elements. Substituting Scala Sans, which is a hair lighter in weight than Calluna Sans, at 10 pt, would help, but we can't use Scala. A custominsed version of Calluna Sans with a slightly lighter weight (and not their official Light version — too dramatically different) in 10 pt would also do it, but that is beyond our means to request from a font designer.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
I saw the added material but it still didn't address the 'why' — I should have guessed readability.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Yes - staying closer to not much more than 80 characters per line makes a difference, as we've likely read or heard many times, but it holds.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
I would not think justified text varies enough to exceed this metric, at least, not to any degree that's meaningful given the error and variance ranges of readability standards.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
I've reread this several times but it's not clear yet - can you explain further what you mean?
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
In my experience, readability metrics are subject to considerable 'slack,' at least in general-audience materials. The specifics change with almost every study across audiences and time and even in most educational material most of the rules are guidelines, not absolute targets.
I suggest that (in your case) getting close to 80 or so characters a line is close enough, and easily obtainable with a general style setting, no elaborate line by line adjustment needed.
Unless you're producing material for a readability study, in which case never mind. 🙂
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Given that we wish to stay with 9.9 pt and tracking 1, what would be a recommendation then for altering general style settings to get closer to the goal - a ballpark adjustment reccommendation to H&J? Thanks again.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
I'd determine the optimum character count for that font size and margin width, and if some reasonable percentage of non-terminal lines are at or within that range, not worry about slight variance in other lines. After all, at a certain point in mucking around with size and spacing and tracking and kerning and so forth, you're likely to violate more general rules of typographic esthetics — nearly all of which stem from the more general notion of readability, as well as reading fatigue — and cancel any theoretical advantage of having some narrow range of characters across.
Use these metrics as guidelines, not absolute rules. The only way you are going to get exactly 82 characters per line (or whatever) is to use a monospace font, which would kick overall readability into the dumpster. Let the type and traditional esthetics do their part along with the fiddly metrics.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
That's understood, really. We're not at all looking to have exactly 82 characters per each line, every single line - but just as a global average. Given that point size is set, as mentioned, and not changing (unless moving out to two decimal places, very fractionally) and tracking, as also mentioned, shouldn't be tweaked much further, if at all, and the column width is set, then what options are left? H&J is effectively all that's left, no?
It seems we need mostly more word space. So what setting recommendations, ballpark, are there to H&J that might bring us towards the goal of reducing character count by about 3 characters per line (on average)? The current settings again are below. I've tried, for example, setting desired word space percentages much higher, but to very little effect - perhaps it's constrained by justification. Any rate, thank you.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
There is no correct answer to this. You want to mold an inherently flexible medium to a rigid standard, which is somewhat contrary to how the inherent rules and processes work. So: you have all the tools at hand; adjust them as needed to get your layout to the end point that suits you.
There is no single, high-precision answer here.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Let me emphasize that the exactitude inferred or implied is perhaps a misreading, understandably, of what I am saying. I've continued trying to emphasize "average" referring to the whole page or whole book. This means some lines may be 65 and some 90 characters, and that's fine and to be expected. Decreasing the average by about 3 characters isn't at all a vague, impractical, or foolish goal, I contend. Some variables, as described, are defined and set, but others (word spacing, mostly) are still open.
Again, I'm having trouble bringing H&J to do what it seems, as far as I can tell, it should do here – break apart word spacing further, to reach the goal of having a few characters less per line mostly via more word spacing – and wonder what's constraining its effect. Perhaps justification? I'll search further.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Okay. You're the one who's said you're looking for exact line counts, or as close to it as possible, in the name of readability. Since you're the only one who grasps the end goal, it's up to you to use all these text spacing and sizing options to get as close to that goal as you can — but you have to realize that there is no one setting, one style, one tweak of tracking or whatever that is a universal solution for (at least) several pages of text.
That is, it's not that I or anyone else here is refusing to give you advice — it's that there is no advice beyond what's already been given; apply it until you reach your defined goal.
If what you were hoping to find was some feature or override or setting that would accomplish what you want, I think you have it exactly backwards: InDesign's overall set of rules, as implemented in the way it handles text, are to follow the established general rules of typographic esthetics (which more or less equates to an overall sense of readability), and not to follow derived metrics to achieve fairly arbitrary character or word counts.
You have all the available tools. You have your goals. But, honest, you're on your own with getting there.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Script could go line by line and do what you need - play with various types of spacing / tracking / etc. - but does it really matter if there is 84 or 88 characters per line? Or you just want to avoid extremely "overcrowded" lines?
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Indeed it seems to make a meaningful difference, at this end of the spectrum, whether we violate the established 80 max character count recommendation by 4 or by 8. This seems the same as avoiding an overcrowed (simply, tight) line by that amount of characters.
Similarly, narrowing the column by 0.5 cm is also very impactful in terms of easing readability, which, incidentally, equates to about 4 characters as well. However we don't wish to go the route of redesigning the columns and layout broadly.
If looking closely at the Taschen model in Scala Sans shared above, there's a bit more word spacing evident, which seems key. Bumping Calluna Sans from 9.9 pt to 10 helps, but gets too heavy in weight. We end up being constraint-trapped. But coaxing mostly more word space out of the settings towards the target of an 84 character count average by some means seems the way.
It may help to share H&J settings on our layout here. Thanks for responding.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Don't know if it will work, but you mentioned you want to do this with word spacing, so why not simply add a GREP style to your paragraph styles to track just the spaces? Or to change the horizontal scale of space characters?
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Yes, that absolutely seems an approach to take/try, by all means. I'm not at all familiar with exactly how to do it (" simply add a GREP style to your paragraph styles to track just the spaces"), and will try to search the forum for instruction. Anything to get me started on the path, if inclined, may help. Thank you. I still wonder why the desired word space function seems to have little effect and whether that's to do with full justification constraining it, or something else.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
in brief, create a character style that does nothing other than change the tracking value (or you can try horizontal scale) and apply it as a GREP style.
According to Peter Kahrel's GREP in InDesign primer \p{zs} should match any horizontal space except tab or return or I think you can just type a space-bar hit into the dialog if you don't want to affect the fixed-width spaces.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
I believe we need mostly the word spacing to do the work
Hi @Typothalamus, You can use the Justification settings to force more word space without tracking the letter spacing by setting the Desired Word Spacing to something more than 100%:
Then you could then check the average character count per fully justified lines via scripting. Something like this:
var p = app.activeDocument.selection[0].paragraphs;
var lnc = 0;
var c = 0;
var ln;
for (var i = 0; i < p.length; i++){
ln = p[i].lines
lnc += ln.length - 1
for (var j = 0; j < ln.length - 1; j++){
c += ln[j].characters.length
};
};
alert("The Selected Text Averages " + (c/lnc).toFixed(2) +" Characters Per Line")
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
You don't have to iterate through Lines in Paragraphs - you can go straight for Lines collection of the selection.
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
I’m skipping the last line of the paragraphs in order to only count complete lines—the last line of a paragraph might have only a few characters, which would distort the line average. I started with this, but it’s not really the average of the fully justified lines:
var s = app.activeDocument.selection[0];
var a = s.characters.length/s.lines.length
alert(a.toFixed(2))
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
But what if there are a lot of single line paragraphs...
Then they would get skipped— @Typothalamus wants to know what the average character count is for the full measure.
This is a better average for the full measure:
Than this, which is including the last lines:
Copy link to clipboard
Copied
Thank you @rob day —that worked splendiferously. Thanks to everyone for engaging and helping. Working abroad, struggling at Chinese in Taipei, it's a relief to get to a solution on anything important with complexities all around. Small victory.