What caused this issue with printing?

[Inélsòre]

Dear all,

I have recently received a shipment of new titles from my printer. The printing run comprised 3 titles of 25 units each. All titles were packaged and shipped in the same way.

One of the title had ink stains on all 25 units, with 5 units being unusable (see the kind of damage in the pictures below, one picture per damaged unit). The printer saw the pictures and said that the damage is caused by rubbing during shipment and they refused to issue a credit note for more than one damaged copy. They also insisted that this is due to the non-laminated covers. Please note that none of the titles had laminated cover, yet only one title contained significantly damaged copies. Everything was shipped in the same big box with four smaller boxes inside.

Their price for laminating the covers for less than 50 copies is 200% the single unit cost, which makes it unviable.

Two questions:

(1) what do you think caused this damage?

(2) what good printers are available in mainland Europe?

These are musical scores, so either saddle-stitched booklets up to 80 pages or perfect-bound books above. Each booklet usually has one or more inserts, also saddle-stitched but without cover.

I can also provide the PDF of the cover file for you to check whether this was something that I could have prevented with specific settings within InDesign. 

Thank you very much!

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

1. Looks to me like the ink wasn't dry/set enough before the bindery and stacking. 

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

I'm going to guess these were digitally printed due to the small quantity. This looks very much like the toner is being rubbed off (like they are trying to say,, it could have happned in shipping, but could also have happened in their bindery and they didn't notice).  It's typical to shrink wrap product before it's boxed, especially when shipped.

Regardless, THEY are responsible for getting the product to you undamaged. Any reputable printer would have accepted this, so I'm sorry you had this experience, but they are making excuses for a bad product.

[Inélsòre]

Correct, this batch was 25 copies and I believe they do not use offset until 50 or 100 copies (though they did not say).

They mentioned using laser printers (which I believe it means "non-offset"?).

I hope they reply more positively tomorrow or I will have to escalate this to their CEO. 17 copies damaged in some way out of 25 is quite a big thing, and 5 of them are totally unusable.

They are among the most reputable music-specialised printers in the world, so I am very surprised about this.

PS: they do shrink-wrap, but only upon request, and it costs quite a bit more per copy. Still, the other 50 copies are almost perfect.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

"They are among the most reputable music-specialised printers"

They should know better.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

There are two types of "digital presses": one is basically a high-end laser printer that uses toner, the other a press that uses ink but generates the "plates" on the fly. Both can do small press runs. The ink press does not have to be one of those massive HP systems. 

If toner, it was probably rubbed off during shipping; if ink, it probably wasn't completely dry. If a shipping problem, I would have expected the printer to warn me that it could happen. 

[Inélsòre]

Thank you for explaining this more specifically. They mentioned toners. 

Regardless: if they packaged not completely dry items, they should be held responsible—well, ideally, they should admit responsibility.

The reality is that, out of 25 items, 5 are unusable and 8 more which would require direct messaging to buyers to inquire if they would like to take those items (at a discount). It doesn't make sense to me that they just offered a credit note for a single damaged copy, blaming the shipping. Even if they were right, I paid both for packaging and for shipping, meaning if they don't want to refund the copies, they can refund the shipping! 

What do you think?

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Toner would be dry coming out of the printer but it's possible the toner can stick to another sheet if there is enough heat (like a really warm day). 

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

Indeed. but this smacks of toner. Ink would scuff and smear but wouldn't be lifted off. Also, ink would transfer to the back of the piece stacked next to it. It could be the paper choice played a role as well. As far as Laminating is concerned, the toner can actually be pulled off the paper depending on the coverage. For instancve, I did some business cards with a full bleed background blue... any attempt to laminate it peeled right off. In this case, there's still llots of paper to bond to so wouldn't be an issue.

The more I look at the pictures, the, lifted areas are consistent with machine marks from a folder.

[Inélsòre]

Sigh... they agreed to refund five copies, if I send them back to them, which will cost me more than the copies themselves for which I have already paid... what a nightmare... 

[Kasyan Servetsky]

It looks like the toner wasn't 'baked' properly to the surface of the paper. A probable reason: they set the wrong paper thickness, so too low a temperature was applied. I see this happens on the cover. If it's double-sided print, and they printed both sides simultaneously (in one go) on thick paper, this might damage it in the duplex model.
That's why we print double-sided covers in two steps: first front, then back side.

[Inélsòre]

This cover was 4/0 (printed only on one side). They are still blaming the shipping and refuse to take any responsibility. 

Can you—and/or others—suggest a good, reliable printer for short runs (12, 25, then if a title is successful 50, 100, etc.) in mainland Europe (or with good shipping conditions to Italy)? Thank you!

[Kasyan Servetsky]

"They are still blaming the shipping ..."
It's nonsense! You should scratch it with a razor or something to achieve such an effect.

"Can you—and/or others—suggest a good, reliable printer for short runs (12, 25, then if a title is successful 50, 100, etc.) in mainland Europe (or with good shipping conditions to Italy)?"
I could recommend digital print shops here in Ukraine, for whom reputation is more important than money, but shipment is problematic: planes don't fly because of the war.

[Inélsòre]

Thank you for your honest opinion. They once again confirmed this being due to rubbing during shipment, but they eventually accepted to refund 5 copies and to pay for the shipment of the damaged copies to their office.

Please take care! 

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Who chose the shipper? 

[Inélsòre]

They did. Sometimes it is UPS, sometimes GLS. 

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

IMO, the printer would be responsible to make sure the books were delivered in good condition. If the books were scuffed in shipping, two things could be true: they were not packed well enough allowing the books to shift around in the box, and the shipper mishandled the packages. The _printer_ needs to deal with this problem with the shipper, not the customer (you). 

I don't know if/what the equiviant is of small claims court in your country but I would consider filing a claim. 

Next time, let the printer pay the shipping and you pay the printer. The printer may mark it up, but it creates a stronger connection between the printer and shipper.

[Inélsòre]

Sadly, shippers just seem to play American football with boxes. 

I have unboxed 13 parcels with 800 plus scores today and I've noticed something disconcerting: less than 1% of all scores had any noticeable defect, and they were all barely noticeable. BUT, of the titles belonging to the same series of the one shown above, two units showed very similar damage (ink drop-offs). No other cover has this kind of damage. 

At this point I must at least consider the possibility that the colour I chose for this cover could be problematic for digital printing (or for printing in general on 220gsm cardboard). I am attaching the full PDFs of the cover send with the specification requested by the printer (PDF:X-3). I would also send the InDesign file if necessary. 

Could you please kindly check these files and tell me if you see any problem with this specific colour? 

Thank you so much!

[Kasyan Servetsky]

I printed out your cover on Canon ImagePress C710, and it looks good for me: a pleasant 'cold gray' color which is set in the PDF as RGB — 83,5/86,7/87,8.
See the attached file, though my scanner is far from good.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Should not have been any problem with the files. 

When you opened the boxes, were the books able to move around in the box? If so, they were not packed correctly.