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Em dashes — your thoughts?

Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

Hi

Today’s NYT has an article on em dashes and whether and when they should be used. Here’s the article, and I’d like to hear your thoughts!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/style/em-dash-punctuation.html

~ Jane

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

In the US (you/they) tend to use em dashes – in the UK (I/we) tend to use en dashes with a thin space either side of it.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Derek+Cross  wrote

In the US (you/they) tend to use em dashes – in the UK (I/we) tend to use en dashes with a thin space either side of it.

Likewise in the Netherlands. I've always disliked the most extreme version of the American style, as used way too common in novels—without any spaces at all. It's just so cramped!

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

Well the Dutch and British are basically the same people, the only difference is the Dutch speak better English than the British.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

It's just so cramped!

BTW the article is about usage, not typesetting aesthetics

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

I’m—a—huge—fan

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

Looking at it from an aesthetic standpoint, i.m.h.o. the fabric of a text gets too much disturbed by these super long em dashes. And by using spaces narrower than a regular space, the surrounding word shapes also tend to distort a tad, decreasing its legibility. (That's why I also use a regular space between a word and punctuations like question and exclamation marks, like in French.)

Schermafbeelding 2019-08-16 om 16.21.10.png

Look at the one on the right, the phrase or term almost looks like an inline heading !

So whatever the regional trend is, my personal approach is to use n-dashes and regular spaces. That seems to me the best option to make such a phrase or term stand apart enough and slightly disrupt the train of thought while reading.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

So whatever the regional trend is, my personal approach is to use n-dashes and regular spaces.

I don’t think the author cares how the dash is typeset—the article is about "proper" punctuation not typesetting.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

True — I beg your forgiveness...

(Ellipsis added for extra suspense ?)

(Space added before ? for legibility.)

And Willi (above) sums all its occurrences up very nicely.

Or should I write:

And Willi – above – sums all its occurrences up very nicely.

Because parentheses are common in Dutch – not in English.

At least, that's what I've been told !

(And after space-! this forum software whips up a popup.)

So the use of punctuations is not just an editorial matter,

but also a typesetting one – and specific for your region.

A great topic to enter the weekend with 😉 (Ahh, emojis)

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

Just to fine tune this use of en dashes, they can be used to join two numbers, but without a space either side: 32–36 Acacia Avenue and dates: 2002–2004 but put a space either side when you have: 18 September – 12 November and use hyphens for mid-90s.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

And in the meantime Rob—huge—fan is crying his eyes out because of these aesthetic details !

Don't worry Rob, we're not hi-jacking the article or the topic. 🙂

But the cognition of any mental intentions of a text relies a lot on a correct visual representation and perception (Gestalt Principles) and its variances. So any region-specific typesetting can have a strong (mis)interpreted semantic value elsewhere. A typical American em-dash (i.e.) looks like an eyesore to many non-American readers, is not readily understood, and just disturbs comprehensive reading. While an American reader considers anything between parentheses as non-crucial information, while that's not what it tries to convey in Dutch (and some other languages).

Parentheses, quotes, dashes, semicolons, even commas – the proper use and representation of them all is both overlapping and different in many languages ! I.m.h.o. this distinguishing and confusing aspect is crucial and can't be neglected.

The only thing which can be used as a commonly well-understood practice is a plain sentence, not overly convoluted with multiple (or even nested*) clauses, ending with a period.

* You see, to me this "or even nested" part between parentheses is crucial in the explanation – does it seem like that to you ?

Or should I have used dashes ?

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

A book on the semicolon has just been published: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Semicolon-Past-Present-Future-Misunderstood/dp/1982661070/ref=sr_1_1?keywor...

Amazon's description reads as follows:

A page-turning, existential romp through the life and times of the world’s most polarizing punctuation mark

The semicolon. Stephen King, Hemingway, Vonnegut, and Orwell detest it. Herman Melville, Henry James, and Rebecca Solnit love it. But why? When is it effective? Have we been misusing it? Should we even care?

In Semicolon, Cecelia Watson charts the rise and fall of this infamous punctuation mark, which for years was the trendiest one in the world of letters. But in the nineteenth century, as grammar books became all the rage, the rules of how we use language became both stricter and more confusing, with the semicolon a prime victim. Taking us on a breezy journey through a range of examples—from Milton’s manuscripts to Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Letters from Birmingham Jail” to Raymond Chandler’s The Big Sleep—Watson reveals how traditional grammar rules make us less successful at communicating with each other than we’d think. Even the most die-hard grammar fanatics would be better served by tossing the rule books and learning a better way to engage with language.

Through her rollicking biography of the semicolon, Watson writes a guide to grammar that explains why we don’t need guides at all, and refocuses our attention on the deepest, most primary value of language: true communication.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

There are two ways to look at that, I believe ...

One is that using en dashes, and space, helps balance the type color and blends seamlessly inside the copy block.

The other is that you're trying to call attention to a point of emphasis inside the copy. And that em dashes work because they are disruptive. Less than using, say, bold and italic styling of type. But effective at calling attention to the type between em dashes where you want emphasis.

Jus' sayin' ...

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

They can be used instead of commas and parenthesis; stronger than commas and not as strong as parenthesis.

I like dashes, both en and em dash, don't you?

I like dashes – both en and em dash – don't you?

I like dashes (both en and em dash) don't you?

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Randy+Hagan  schreef

And that em dashes work because they are disruptive.

Less than using, say, bold and italic styling of type.

Oh yes "disruptive" indeed !

Like I said, it's like having an inline heading. As if some one is having a case of Gilles de la Tourette while gently talking to you. Don't know if that's the impact you're looking for when formatting a text to make it easy to read and to comprehend its structure. It sure will grab my attention...

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

Oh yeah. Guilty as charged.

I liberally intersperse bold ital and ital type in my answers to InDesign questions, corresponding to program commands, and entry values when working with the program respectively. My theory is that even if someone doesn't read the entire answer, the typographic tricks provide a short outline which will get them where they want to be.

Sometimes, I think, it is worth using such syntax tricks to make a point. Maybe it's my background as a journalist rather than a graphic designer. Type color isn't the be-all and end-all to me as it might be for others. Your mileage may vary ...

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

In German the M-Dash (Geviertstich) is rarely use, it was used as Streckenstrich to symbolize the way between two cities, like Wien—München, but more and More then N-Dash has replaced the M-Dash.
The N-Dash has several positions or meanings:
– as bullet
– as Gedankenstrich, used like in the US the M-Dash in its meaning, but with typographic differences: it musst be used between a normal space and another space, a comma after the dash is allowed and it should never be at the start of a new line.

– as new Streckenstrich in replacement of the M-Dash.

– as Bis-Strich between numbers or ranges of numbers, like Bible Vers references: Psalm 25,15–18 or range of time, mostly in tabular form.

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Valorous Hero ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

It must be Friday...

I'll use whatever convention is the house style or editor's choice. When this is communicated, I could not care less. Whether en or em dashes, it all pays the same.

When it's up to me, I'll use em dashes. Why? Because that is the (general) convention used here in the US. And I am never against editing the font to make the dashes "proper," whether by decreasing their widths and/or increasing their side bearings. Even a lot of Adobe get it wrong.

Take for instance Adobe Garamond Pro. The "M" has an advanced width of 912 units (Font Units). But the M character itself has 879 units at its widest parts and has 22/33 units of side bearing (L/R respectively). The Em Dash has an advanced width of 1000 units with zero-width side bearings. Which is far wider than the actual convention wisdom of the em dash being equal to the M bounding box (which is the advance width).

How I make my fonts is also not conventional in that I make the, in this case, em dash generally equal to the width of the M where the em dash aligns across the M character. So with Adobe Garamond Pro, I would have made the em dash's advance width equal to the M's at 912, and the em dash's width 654 units and off set to the left from center.

First screen shot is using the original em dash, second is of the modified version

Capture_000145.png

Capture_000146.png

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

After the dots should be normally a reduced fixed space like 1/6 or 1/8.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 16, 2019 Aug 16, 2019

No-one seems to have mentioned the minus sign; the fourth dash (for typographic obsessives!). 

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Advocate ,
Aug 17, 2019 Aug 17, 2019

Hardly an obsession! More about the minus sign:

plusminus.png

plusminus2.png

Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

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Guide ,
Aug 17, 2019 Aug 17, 2019

In Russia, we have quite strict rules of using Em Dash:
- Starting dialogues
- Connecting Direct Sppech with the rest part of the sentece

- Connecting Subject and Predicate in the sentence if they are nouns or pronouns.

Other using may exist as an "author's punctuation", but not very often, mainly for increasing the pause after some complex parts of the sentence (e.g. long list in parenthesises, several levels of nested sub-sentences etc.) Too many Em-Dashes (as well as too me=any emphasises) is concidered as a sign of low-skilled author with some mess in the head

Other dashes have their own job. But, certainly, some authors and typeseters use punctuation at random, so we check it on every project.

We use Em Dash with thin spaces around.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 17, 2019 Aug 17, 2019

Too many Em-Dashes (as well as too me=any emphasises) is concidered as a sign of low-skilled author with some mess in the head

I guess there‘s an exception to every rule

Martha Nell Smith, a professor of English at the University of Maryland and the author of five books on the poet Emily Dickinson (the original em dash obsessive), said that Dickinson used the dash to “highlight the ambiguity of the written word.”

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Community Expert ,
Aug 17, 2019 Aug 17, 2019

Another wide-spread though very particular use of the em-dash is in legal documents, to fill the gaps of empty space with. This mildly prevents any fraudulent action, like adding words or figures after numbers to a line of text. In the sample below, a typewriter has been used, so the only available dash is a monospaced one. But in more sophisticated documents, an em-dash might be used.

Schermafbeelding 2019-08-17 om 22.42.44.png

Another use I've heard of (but for which I can't find any proof), is the em-dash as an ancient way to mark a new sentence. When paper was scarce, scribes just kept writing lines of text across the whole width of a page, without breaking it up into paragraphs. That's what the pilcrow character was intended for. And in a similar fashion, in stead of using a period, scribes used a longer line (like the em-dash) as a weaker break than the pilcrow, to clearly separate sentences from each other.

Villanova-rudimenta-grammaticæ-Valencia-1500.jpg

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Engaged ,
Aug 17, 2019 Aug 17, 2019

Hmmm. Are not there three? 1) dash, 2) en dash 3) em dash? Which requires fewer keystrokes to enter? Dash, I think. The others are cuter, but I will go with dash.  I have used computers since 1980. That is a lot of keystrokes. Must keep them to a minimum.

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