Lightroom 3 Develop previews different from Loupe view?

[Tim Woodward]

Hi there, I have a weird problem and it's very difficult to explain but I will try 🙂 I have a Macbook and a secondary profiled monitor connected for a better view of how the image will turn out once developed. I have just noticed (as I have only just started using the secondary monitor) that in standard view once I have started editing an image in develop, and then go back to loupe view, and then back into develop, the image on the secondary monitor displays identically for a second or two and then degrades. Becomes very grainy. If I then go back to loupe view it smoothes out. At first I thought this was because Lightroom uses the RAW data to compile the standard preview in develop as opposed to a preset preview (1680 high in my case) in loupe view, and that the develop module was obviously providing a more accurate view - but this isn't a more accurate view, as when I go 1:1 the image is smooth and not grainy!

To further illustrate, lets say I choose an image I have edited before, the view is the same in both modules initially, but as soon as I alter the image in any way in develop the preview degrades. Lets again say I have a degraded preview on screen, standard view, in develop module. If I then flick to another image that image is smooth for a second or two and then degrades too - you can see it happen! If I then edit the image whilst in develop, then I go back to loupe view, the image is still degraded, but then if I stay in loupe view and go 1:1 the secondary monitor (which is still displaying standard preview) picks up the change and shows an accurate smooth detailed view.

This is very weird but does mean that using Lightroom for serious editing is not possible as I can't trust the preview (unless I keep flicking back to loupe view!) except at 1:1 which anyone with a 14Mp camera knows is so big you cant get an overview of what you are doing. 1:1 is only useful for sharpening and noise reduction really. Please note: this is not visible when minor edits are made, but I often convert my images to B&W with split toning, and when you do this and say bring down the blue mix sliders down to increase sky definition (which can introduce artifacts) the degrading is severe - but like I say it isn't true or real as 1:1 view shows nice smooth tone variation. I have rebuilt previews to match the resolution of my larger monitor, deleted preview files, not sure what else to do except forget using the bigger monitor as the effect is far more noticeable on that! I have attached files (which I hope upload OK as I couldn't preview) showing the problem. If anyone else has this issue I would be very interested to hear about it!

Tim.

Loupe View

Develop View

Develop View 1:1

[Todd Shaner]

You've got my vote added to both!

[tomtrippe]

Thanks, TK2142, for pointing to your bug report and feature request.  I was not plugged in to the Photoshop Family Feedback forums before.  The discussions there gave me comfort that Adobe is considering the Develop preview issue.  You got my vote on both.

Tom

[TK2142]

trshaner wrote:

You've got my vote added to both!

tomtrippe wrote:

You got my vote on both.

Thanks, to both of you!

[Tim Woodward]

Hi everybody, well I am just downloading 3.5 - don't suppose the issue is fixed here? Ever since I have gone exclusively to RAW on the Canon I have fallen foul of this quite a bit - usually when I convert to duotone and start playing with the color mix... we shall see!

[Lee_Jay-ZyZk56]

trshaner wrote:

Thank you for your astute observations! I guess I've been spoiled with the low-noise exhibited by my Canon DSLRs. I also try to expose for maximum highlights using a UniWB camera histogram, so normally don't need to push exposure or fill too much (1-2 stops max.). I rarely use much Luminance NR, and normally wouldn't be able to see the noise at "fit" view anyhow.

But it does beg the question of what is wrong with making these adjustments at 1:1, which is what you should be doing anyhow. I never worry about the quality of the "fit" view image concerning sharpness and noise reduction, just exposure, tone, color balance, and composition (cropping). My results ignoring fit view quality and using only 1:1 view to make sharpness and NR adjustments have been pretty darn good with LR 3!

I'm not saying this isn't a problem for some LR users, just that it hasn’t been for me with the equipment I’m using. I'm sure I would have a different opinion if I worked with other posters image files on their systems. Perhaps Adobe would as well.....if they had that ability or desire to do so.

First of all, my primary low-light camera is a Canon 5D.

The reason I don't like this behavior is that residual noise, especially color noise, can affect how you adjust global colors in the image when you are doing that at fit view.

[tomtrippe]

Hi Lee Jay,

I agree that the cutoff at which NR ceases to be applied to the Develop preview is dependent on the size-on-screen.  I tested this last year using examples like you suggested, where the original image was underexposed and I had increased the exposure three or four stops in Lightroom so that noise was very visible at 1:4 magnification. I then added significant NR, which, for the particular camera, was displayed correctly at 1:1, 1:2, and 1:3 but not displayed at 1:4.  I then switched to FILL with the window sized such that the image was about the same magnification as 1:4, where one screen pixel contains 4x4 photo pixels.  Then I widened the window to increase the magnification slowly.  When I reached the point where one screen pixel contained about 3.1x3.1 photo pixels, suddenly the NR was applied to the Develop preview.  This 3.1 pixel cutoff agrees with the fact that the NR is not displayed at 1:4 but is displayed at 1:3.  The 3.1 parameter was the same for different images from the same camera (and same ISO, which I didn't vary).  The 3.1 was also the same for different screens with different pixel counts and sizes.  Each of the three cameras I tried gave a different floating point parameter which always correctly predicted which magnifications would have NR applied to the Develop preview.

I suspect that this parameter is calculated by the algorithm that you mention, based on camera and ISO, and then is used to decide what screen magnifications will have NR applied.

Tom

[Todd Shaner]

Well, it is an issue on the Windows platform as well (32 bit). I cannot speak to the 64 bit version but find it hard to believe that it would not occur as well.

I'm not convinced this is the case. There is a thread yielding issue that can affect performance that only exists in the Windows version. IIRC, only in the Windows version the keyboard controls for most Develop module sliders are broken. The mouse wheel controls feathering of the brush in the wrong direction on Windows only. Keywords with spaces were broken in the Windows version only. The list could probably be extended

OK, so there are issues with Windows 32bit systems – Good to know. You also say, "I cannot speak to the 64 bit version." I can and I'm not experiencing issues with develop slider keyboard controls or mouse control that you describe, but then I don't use keyboard shortcuts that much. I just tried a bunch of the develop slider controls on my Vista 64bit laptop and they all work fine.

Again it appears Adobe is putting the majority of effort (i.e. most development people) on supporting Windows 64bit platforms.

I'm quite puzzled by the fact that functionality like the sliders or mouse wheel control is not implemented with shared code. This drives up development and QC effort. Why use Lua at all, if different code bases are maintained for different platforms?

I think this is more a case of Adobe using two different development teams to work on Windows platform coding and Mac OS platform coding. Just like we experience here between Mac and Windows users, people don't always see things the same way or agree with each other! I'm not saying this is good business practice, but it happens.

The bottom-line is businesses focus on target markets that produce the most profitability. I'm convinced Adobe looks at the Mac market as Apple's Aperture territory, which is harder to penetrate, and Windows 32 as a small and diminishing market. So they are expending a limited, market proportional amount of resources to support Mac and Windows 32bit users. The Windows market is pretty much a given for Adobe when it comes to Lightroom alternatives.

I'm not saying this is fair, right, or even ethical, but it is the nature of capitalism. Posting and/or voting on the Photoshop Family Feedback site is the best way you can make things happen. Or you can upgrade to a 64bit Windows platform, which makes good sense for PC users, and Aperture is certainly an option that Mac users can consider.

[Lee_Jay-ZyZk56]

trshaner wrote:

I think this is more a case of Adobe using two different development teams to work on Windows platform coding and Mac OS platform coding.

No, there's only one (small) team.  And I believe most of them use Macs personally.

[tomtrippe]

Hi Lee,

Thanks for the explanation. Your description of the camera and ISO

dependence and your discussion of where the algorithm fails are consistent

with my observations. I would be satisfied with your proposed solution of

the slider.

It also seems plausible that the rendering of the image with NR could be

done in a background process with a low priority so that it gets done when

there is idle CPU.

Tom

[Amberklene]

So, LR4 Beta released, I see in the list of changes.....

"NR effects are now rendered in image previews other than 1:1 view"

Does this mean that the develop bug is fixed?

Downloaded the beta for checking, but it will be a few days before I get around to loading it on the spare machine to see.

P.

[Todd Shaner · Accepted solution]

Yes, noise reduction appears to be applied at all view levels from Fit through 1:1 in LR4 Beta Library and Develop modules. Compare the below image processed with LR4 Beta versus the same picture posted above on Aug 12, 2011:

Double-Click on image to see full size. The application of NR is most obvious in the wood doors below the sink and stainless steel door to the left.