Lightroom 5 ICC profiles clipped shadows under OSX

Explorer ,
Dec 27, 2013 Dec 27, 2013

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi, I've just found a really bad issue occurring in Lr 5 (but also in all other Lightroom versions) under Mac OSX 10.9 with a calibrated monitor: dark shadows (from a value of 20 to 0) are all clipped (pure black with no detail and no textures) while the histogram remains ok, indicating NO clipped shadows at all. This issue afflics also ACR.

Photoshop for now is the only software under MAC that reproduces dark shadows correctly: Library Module shows a bit darker and shifted shadows than Ps but acceptable, Develop Module is really bad showing brutally clipped shadows (but you work in the Develop Module right?!).

The same problem occurred also in OSX 10.8 but it was related only to LUT profiles, creating a Matrix based profile problems were solved.

Now the issue occurs with both Matrix and LUT profiles, v2 and v4. There's no apparent way to make Lr working right.

Under Windows no problems at all: Bridge, Photoshop, ACR, Lr (Library Module and Develop Module) show the same correct NOT clipped shadows.

I tested 8 different Mac running 10.9 with different GPU, different monitors, different profiling Softwares (Color Eyes Display Pro, Eizo Color Navigator, BasICC Color, i1 Profiler). Same results.

I tried to change the gamma value (2.2, sRGB, L*) problems remain. I tried to change ICC version (v2, v4) problems reamain. I tried to change profile type (LUT, MATRIX) problems remain.

How can a photographer work professionally on RAW images if shadows are bad reproduced?

Why Photoshop can reproduce shadows correctly while Lr isn't able to do that?

Why this happens only on a Mac enviroment?

Is Lr based on ColorSync (that can't handle profiles correctly) while Ps isn't (because it can handle and it has no problem)?

Please Adobe, FIX IT for all professional photographers, we can’t use Lr for serious works under Mac.

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

Views

25.2K

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines

correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , Oct 22, 2014 Oct 22, 2014

Hi Folks,

We have up-leveled this issue, identified the source and we are currently testing a solution. We will provide more information as it becomes available.

Kelly C.

Lightroom QE

Likes

Translate

Translate
replies 107 Replies 107
Community Beginner ,
Jan 15, 2015 Jan 15, 2015

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

How about the solution?

Anything new?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jan 15, 2015 Jan 15, 2015

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The LR 5.7 release notes from November seem to indicate it has been corrected:

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2014/11/lightroom-5-7-now-available.html

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Jul 01, 2015 Jul 01, 2015

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hello everyone, I have an importand update for this thread: the issue described here affects only Eizo users, because Color Navigator (the only software that can manage Eizo Display's internal LUT) creates ICC profiles which need "black point compensation" to work properly. If the software color management engine can't apply the black point compensation, the shadows are bad rendered (clipped with no details). This is the reason why Victoria (who uses BasICColor) cannot reproduce the issue, and this is the reason why Photoshop (which can do "black point compensation") shows perfect shadows.

Today no OS can do this (OSX nor Windows), no internet browsers and probably neither Adobe Camera RAW 9.1 (with GPU on) nor Lightroom 2015.1 (with GPU on) can (the issue shows up in the latest version of ACR and LR ideed)

Is it possible to enable the "black point compensation" in Lightroom Develop Module? This is the only way to fix this issue for every Eizo user.

Thanks

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Jul 01, 2015 Jul 01, 2015

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Still seems Mac-specific. I have absolutely identical black levels between Lr/PS on a Win7 system, using an Eizo CG246 and ColorNavigator v6.

But all my current profiles are matrix, not LUT (mainly because Firefox has for a long time had problems with LUT profiles, known issue).

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Jul 01, 2015 Jul 01, 2015

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Not really, I have the same issue in Windows 8.1. If you use a Matrix profile created by Color Navigator (called Gamma value) you can't check the option "reflect black level in tone curve"... this option is the problem: it allow CN to create a better profile (dE < 1 for all colors and gray tones) but it needs "black point compensation".

On Windows OS, ACR 9 and Lr CC 2015 probably use "black point compensation" but ACR 9.1 and Lr CC 2015.1 use it only when GPU support is turned off.

This is the perhaps the issue to fix.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Jul 25, 2016 Jul 25, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Any news on the subject? Is it a Eizo, Mac or Adobe related issue?

I am having the same problem on Mac OS 10.8 and Lightroom 5.7. I have solved it using Matrix-based profile in Eizo ColorSync. Unfortunately my matrix based profile created for Eizo CS240 is less accurate then the LUT profile but let me see the shadow tones correctly.

Now I am interested in a new computer(Mac) and with that a new OS and wonder if it is still impossible to get correct shadow readings (RGB 0-20) in Lightroom 5 or 6?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Jul 25, 2016 Jul 25, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Just curious, are the shadows clipped using older Mac OS like 10.7 and LUT based profile?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Nov 02, 2016 Nov 02, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

macOS Sierra and still the same issue with clipping shadows in Lightroom... only way to work is to use Soft Proofing
Can anyone in Adobe do something with that? It's ridiculous and from client point of view it does not matter if it's Apple's or Adobe's fault. Would be really great if this two big companies work together to solve such problems which makes pros unable to work 😕

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Nov 02, 2016 Nov 02, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Lightroom 4 and 5 both have a problem under Sierra, with black clipping and shadow banding. This has been reported in several threads here recently.

Lightroom 6 and CC work fine by all reports.

So if Sierra changed anything, Adobe picked up on it and everything is business as usual. Adobe has never updated legacy software versions for newer OS's, ever. Only current versions are updated.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Nov 04, 2016 Nov 04, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

D Foss - after your post  I've bought Lr6 and was happy that this problem is no more... but after two days of working the problem came back with no reason :/. Now I have macOS Sierra, brand new Lightroom 6 which is useless to work with my dark photos and I have lost 80 euro to be in the sam place.

EDIT: just found out one thing. The problem exist when user turns OFF "Use Graphics Processor" in Preferences>Performance. I have to turn OFF this option because my pictures flickers when editing. So now I have to choose between flickering or bad shadows.

Does anyone knows where to report that?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Nov 04, 2016 Nov 04, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Did you update to the latest version? I run 6.7/2015.7 on Sierra and don't see the problem. How are you calibrating your display?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Nov 04, 2016 Nov 04, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Yes, updated 6.7 version. Standard monitor profile (MBP Retina) - was always good before capitan/sierra.

Now:

When "Use Graphics Processor" ON: Develop OK (same as Soft Proofing), Library NOT

OFF: Develop and Library NOT

I would get over it (even with bug in Library, which still should not be present), but can't have to have GP ON because of occasional flickering.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Dec 10, 2016 Dec 10, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Updated to 6.8 version of Lightroom and problem exists on very dark images:

STILL:
"When "Use Graphics Processor" switched ON: Develop is OK (same as Soft Proofing), Library is NOT

"Use Graphics Processor" switched OFF: Develop and Library are NOT and have clipped shadows

I would get over it (even with bug in Library, which still should not be present), but can't have to have "Use Graphics Processor" switched ON because of occasional flickering."

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 10, 2016 Dec 10, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Richard,

can you answer my question above: "How are you calibrating your display?". Your symptoms are consistent with a bad monitor profile. Recalibrating it might help. If it doesn't, report your problem including screenshots to Photoshop Lightroom | Photoshop Family Customer Community. The forum here is mostly other users like me. The link is a place where lots of Adobe engineers look for reports of bugs and such.

What Mac do you have? What kind of GPU is in it? What kind of monitor?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Dec 10, 2016 Dec 10, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

It#s still the same bug with Eizo Monitors and Hardware Calibration. Clipped shadows in Photoshopy Liquify and so on.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 10, 2016 Dec 10, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

HartWorx wrote:

It#s still the same bug with Eizo Monitors and Hardware Calibration. Clipped shadows in Photoshopy Liquify and so on.

AFAIK Liquify uses OpenGL. So in your case it's probably the video driver.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Dec 10, 2016 Dec 10, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

it's the video driver not working together with the application and hardware calibration ICC.

Software Calibration is usually the BAD way.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 11, 2016 Dec 11, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

HartWorx wrote:

it's the video driver not working together with the application and hardware calibration ICC.

Software Calibration is usually the BAD way.

Hardware vs. software calibration is not the issue. Calibration is not part of the color management chain; the profile is.

Identifyng the exact point of failure in a color management breakdown is usually very difficult, precisely because it's a chain. These are not separate, unrelated "things". Whether it's the source profile, the display profile or the actual conversion process can only be established by testing each link in the chain.

The profile conversion - the actual calculations - can be performed by application code, by OS code, or by video driver code, depending on circumstances and configuration.

And sometimes bugs work together, triggering each other.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 10, 2016 Dec 10, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Jao vdL wrote:

can you answer my question above: "How are you calibrating your display?". Your symptoms are consistent with a bad monitor profile.

He says standard monitor profile (MBP retina). I assume that means the default Mac OS "Display" profile, and that he's not using a calibrator.

The mystery part here is why this particular symptom - black clipping - keeps happening again and again, under seemingly different conditions (different Mac OS versions; different Lr versions). Ever since the OP here reported it, it has cropped up with regular intervals.

It mainly seems to affect Lightroom Develop and ACR, IOW the conversion from linear ProPhoto to display. But that could be because this is a particularly complex conversion, with lots of out-of-gamut that needs to be remapped, as well as tone response curve remapping.

The problem is also very conspicuously absent from Windows. Under Windows all color management is handled end-to-end by the application, whereas Mac OS is directly involved in all color management. So that suggests Apple, not Adobe.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Dec 13, 2016 Dec 13, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Jao cdL: D Fosse is right, I use default "Display" profile, but it also is not working on any other profile and software calibration which Apple provides. Suggesting that this is a bad monitor profile is bit tricky, because it seams that LR6 is not working on out of the box configuration of my MacBook (MBP mid 2015, AMD Radeon R9 M370X 2048  MB without external monitor).

The problem is that for me Adobe solved this problem only for DEVELOP module with "Use Graphics Processor" switched ON. In every other option problem still exists, mainly in LIBRARY module - which means that the problem is linked not only to the graphic card processing chain, but to the way macOS Sierra/LR6 interprets ICC proofiles.
The funny thing is that the same RAW files in Finder's QuickLook are displayed as they should, and also in Capture One, but not in LR6.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 17, 2016 Dec 17, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Richard Hade wrote:

Jao cdL: D Fosse is right, I use default "Display" profile, but it also is not working on any other profile and software calibration which Apple provides. Suggesting that this is a bad monitor profile is bit tricky, because it seams that LR6 is not working on out of the box configuration of my MacBook (MBP mid 2015, AMD Radeon R9 M370X 2048 MB without external monitor).

The problem is that for me Adobe solved this problem only for DEVELOP module with "Use Graphics Processor" switched ON. In every other option problem still exists, mainly in LIBRARY module - which means that the problem is linked not only to the graphic card processing chain, but to the way macOS Sierra/LR6 interprets ICC proofiles.
The funny thing is that the same RAW files in Finder's QuickLook are displayed as they should, and also in Capture One, but not in LR6.

It seems indeed that that bug has cropped up again. I haven't noticed it on my own also a early 2015 MBP running Sierra with LR 6 but I have run into a very similar bug in an older iteration of Lightroom: Jao's photo blog: Further quantification of the Mavericks color management problem. This was ultimately fixed by Adobe releasing LR 5.7. It was caused by Apple doing something to the color management chain that broke Adobe's code. It is not unlikely that something similar is going on again and that it is going to be very dependent on the precise software versions and GPU hardware. I would still report on feedback.photoshop.com.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Dec 19, 2016 Dec 19, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I have posted this info of the problem in a still existing from LR5 days topic "Lightroom 5: ICC Table Profiles clipped shadows under OSX" Lightroom 5: ICC Table Profiles clipped shadows under OSX | Photoshop Family Customer Community

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Jan 03, 2017 Jan 03, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Downgraded to El Capitan from macOS Sierra, because of notorious Tone Curve bug Lightroom CC 2015.8: Tone curve still broken in | Photoshop Family Customer Community and this problem exists. So this is El Capitan and Sierra issue for me and again, the only good working is for DEVELOP module with "Use Graphics Processor" switched ON - but it's hard to use because of flickering issues.

Really don't like the this bug and I wonder if Adobe will give me my money back when I will have to downgrade to Yosemite to work with LR5.7 which was last good working version for me and the only reason of buying LR6 was a promise of this problem solved.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Employee ,
Dec 16, 2016 Dec 16, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi folks,

I'm following up with the team to see what updates there are on this topic, if there are any.

Thanks,

Melissa

Melissa Rios, Product Manager, Community Experiences & Platforms | Adobe

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Dec 17, 2016 Dec 17, 2016

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

This is a very good sign.

There are some issues especially with hardware calibrated display from my perspective.

Tethered shooting into an Eizo Hardware Calibrated System is impossible right now because the newest shot images are in library module and have clipped shadows. For most of my clients this is not acceptable and produces a lot of discussions.

From my perspective i really can't understand why these kind of workflows are not testes with state of the art workflows in professional environments.

I have been working with a lot with Color Management issues the last years and the only way to shoot tethered right now is working with Capture One. Bad for paying customers.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines