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LRClassic (LRC) and LRcloud (LRc)

Explorer ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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dear all,

I am pretty new to thei nice Community, so please forgive me for my "innocent" question.

I do have LRC, LRc, PS which I use to edit my photos.

Obviously I appreciate having a Cloud back-up, and online access especially when on the move; but I do prefer the nuances offered by LRC when editing the most interesting photos.

Now I do understand (and some ofyou contributed to this in previous posts) that the 2 systems use a separate catalog, though there is some overlapping when syncing (and this part is less clear to me).

I really do not get it why does not the ADOBE TEAM (and if it does please let me have the details asap) offer a single catalog you may access through LRC and LRc, on top of local catalogs (separate for each application).

Such a system would allow an easy transfer of same photos (w/o losing any edit) between apps.

Not to mention that the communication between PS and LR seems poor to me: you lose all the history of edits when coming back from PS to LR (and again if this is not the case pleaase advise on how to do it).

Usually (and my own experience as a Cardiac SUrgeon and Medical Device Industry) is to make the "customer experience" as seamless as possible, not the other way round.

Am I missing something or it is just my huge inexperience with the 3 softwares that is affecting my thoughts ?

Best regards,

eric

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LEGEND ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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The design choices made by the Adobe teams working on Lightroom and Lightroom Classic was to NOT have one catalog in use for Lr and LrC. Only they can speak to the reasons. It is extremely rare for them to make any statements in these forums, and on those extremely rare occasions when they do make such a statement, it is never to answer WHY questions.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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Not to mention that the communication between PS and LR seems poor to me: you lose all the history of edits when coming back from PS to LR (and again if this is not the case pleaase advise on how to do it).

By @eric32035440sekv

 

The reason for this is technical, and would apply to any software (not just by Adobe) that works the same way:

  • Lightroom and Lightroom Classic are parametric editors, so edits are applied to the original but not rendered into it, for maximum flexibility. There is no single file that exists with the edits until a copy with edits is exported. 
  • Photoshop is a traditional direct pixel editor, so edits are rendered to the original file. It isn’t necessary to export for other applications to see the edits, because the original has been modified with them. 

 

If you send a file from Lightroom (or Lightroom Classic) to Photoshop, there is no choice but to render all Lightroom edits into a new pixel document that is handed to Photoshop. Especially for raw files, because Photoshop cannot handle raw files on its own. (Without Lightroom, any raw files you open in Photoshop must first be rendered into a Photoshop document by Adobe Camera Raw.)

 

When you finish in Photoshop and return to Lightroom, the old edit history isn’t there for two good reasons: It’s a new, separate file, and the edit history belongs to the original file, not this new one. But also, it would not make sense: The version sent to Photoshop is a copy with Lightroom edits rendered into it, so if you transferred the Lightroom edit history to that copy on return, the image would now have the same corrections applied twice, which would be wrong. The earlier round of corrections would have been baked into the rendered pixels on the way out to Photoshop, and a preserved edit history would apply them again. So if you had applied +1 Exposure, copying the original edit history to the rendered file returned from Photoshop would result in +2 Exposure and that is not what you expect. So it’s a one-way trip out, and if the copy comes back to Lightroom it’s a new file with a new history.

 

All of this goes back to understanding that Lightroom and Photoshop are two very different kinds of image editors, so they can’t simply transfer edits back and forth. You would have the same problem transferring edits between Capture One (a parametric editor like Lightroom) and the GIMP (a traditional direct pixel editor like Photoshop).

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Explorer ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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very well explained, very much appreciated

at the end is the difference between Destructive (PS) and not  (LR)

would you be so kind to address the 1st part of my post please ?

eric

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Community Expert ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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It's a long and complicated story. Lightroom Classic and Lightroom were not designed to work together. They serve different audiences. Lightroom Classic started some 20 years ago as 'Lightroom', an app that was designed to use local images only. At that time there was no fast internet that could be used to sync images.

 

Then Apple introduced the iPad, and so it became interesting to have a mobile version of Lightroom, and have some kind of synchronisation with the computer version of Lightroom. So Lightroom (not yet called 'Classic' at that time) got some limited sync options.

 

When the internet got even faster and things like 'the cloud' were introduced, Adobe realised that rebuilding Lightroom to do all that too, would be such a monumental task, that it did not make sense. It made much more sense to build a new app from the ground up, that would use the cloud rather than local storage. And so the new Lightroom was introduced and the existing version was renamed 'Lightroom Classic'.

 

I think that Adobe only made one big mistake, and that also triggered your question. They should not have used the name 'Lightroom' for this new cloud app, but should have used a completely different name to make it clear that these were two different apps for two different user groups, even though the old Lightroom has some sync features from the time that it was the only way to sync your desktop computer with Lightroom for iPad. If there had been an app called 'Lightroom' (no need to use 'Classic') that used local storage, and another app called 'CloudPhoto' or something like that, then you probably would not have asked why they did not use the same catalog.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Explorer ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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thank you for addressing my question

I do understand your point, sure

But it's not just about the software names

Here the 2 Apps do very similar things and one would expect they do talk to each other, or at least share the same repository

eric

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Community Expert ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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I tried to explain why they don't, or at least do not talk very well together and do not share the same repository, but apparently I failed to make that clear. If that had been possible, despite the 20 years legacy code in Lightroom Classic, then there would not have been two apps to begin with. There would have been only one Lightroom, that could do all that Lightroom can do and all that Lightroom Classic can do.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Community Expert ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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Here the 2 Apps do very similar things and one would expect they do talk to each other, or at least share the same repository

By @eric32035440sekv

 

Well, they kind of do. Adobe did make an effort to at least partially integrate the old Lightroom Classic code base into the Lightroom Photos cloud system. If you are not already aware, this is what is possible:

  • You can enable cloud sync for one Lightroom Classic catalog. 
  • Within that catalog, you can enable sync for specific Collections, which show up on other Lightroom cloud devices as Albums. Or in Lightroom Classic you can simply drag images into the All Synced Photographs collection, and they will show up in the cloud system. 
  • Develop edits you make to any synced images on any device will sync back to the Lightroom Classic catalog, and Develop edits in Classic also sync out to all devices. Syncing of other metadata is much more limited. 
  • When syncing up from a catalog, Lightroom Classic syncs only Smart Preview proxies, not originals, but Smart Previews do provide full raw editing options to all devices. 
  • Files you import through cloud Lightroom on other devices will sync down to the synced catalog. When you do this, Lightroom Classic downloads a full copy of the original to a local folder you can designate. 

 

So, it is possible for a Classic catalog to participate in a common cloud repository for both Lightroom Classic and cloud Lightroom, with two-way sync for at least Develop edits. But it is necessary to understand the complications and limitations of the relationship.

 

If you want to learn more about Classic syncing to Lightroom Photos in the cloud, here is the Adobe online help for it:

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/help/lightroom-mobile-desktop-features.html

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Explorer ,
May 06, 2024 May 06, 2024

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dear Conrad, I would need your guidance here please.

It seems I have imported set of photos (at different times) not within a SINGLE catalog, but multiples.

Is there a way to unify all the catalogs without losing the editing already done and the metadata ?

thank you for your advice

eric

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Community Expert ,
May 06, 2024 May 06, 2024

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It seems I have imported set of photos (at different times) not within a SINGLE catalog, but multiples.

Is there a way to unify all the catalogs without losing the editing already done and the metadata ?

By @eric32035440sekv

 

Yes, that’s the function of the menu command File > Import from Another Catalog. 

 

On the surface, it sounds similar to importing images with their metadata. But there is an important difference. When you import an image with metadata, all you get is metadata specific to that image.

 

When you use Import from Another Catalog, you not only import an image and its edits, you also import all catalog-level metadata such as the image’s History panel steps, and the image’s membership in collections, and in projects such as slide shows, print layouts, etc. So you get to preserve everything from the other catalog.

 

If you want to consolidate multiple catalogs, first identify the catalog that you want to be the new central catalog. Then use File > Import from Another Catalog to pull in the images and all their edits and metadata from each of the other catalogs.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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Yes, Johan explained much of it well. There were other complications; they discovered that the architecture of the original Lightroom (now Lightroom Classic) was not well suited for some cloud requirements such as full metadata transfer both ways, which is why Lightroom Classic has serious limitations in that area today.

 

So Adobe took an approach that is similar to what we saw other companies do: Build a new replacement application, as a total rewrite, fully supporting the requirements of cloud-based sync across desktop and mobile devices. Again, like other companies, they see the cloud as the future, so they confusingly gave the new application the Lightroom name, and gave the old application the name Lightroom Classic.

 

That leads to the question of catalogs. There is no local catalog in Lightroom, only the Lightroom Photos data store on the Adobe cloud server. This is necessary, because the Lightroom Classic concept of a catalog is not compatible with sync across devices. The Lightroom Classic catalog is a database that lives in a specific folder in a local file system, retrieving images by referencing folder paths. But that ties it to one computer, because none of those paths can be guaranteed to be identical on a different computer, and especially not on a phone or tablet. So in the new Lightroom, all originals are on the server, and all organization is on the server. The devices are just clients that all refer to and modify the organization and photos on the cloud server.

 

What is unique about the Adobe approach is that they kept both the old and new way. If you want 100% cloud sync, you use Lightroom. If you want local-based storage and organization, you can still use Lightroom Classic. If Adobe had followed the examples of others, such as Apple when they completely rewrote Apple Photos to be cloud-friendly, Lightroom Classic would no longer exist, because companies typically discontinue their old local based app when they go cloud. The old Apple Aperture application, also from the mid-2000s, was a direct competitor to the original Lightroom, but Apple killed it rather than adapt it to cloud sync.

 

So one way to look at this is, if you want to use Lightroom in a way consistent with other companies who, like Apple, have completely converted to cloud-based apps for seamless cross-device sync, then just use Lightroom and forget Lightroom Classic exists.

 

But a major problem is that Lightroom is still missing a wide range of productivity features that people like me depend on, such as printing, multiple display support, and much better handling of metadata. So I am sticking with Lightroom Classic, and I am very glad that Adobe has preserved that option so far. (Compare to the Apple Aperture users who remain very unhappy that their local storage professional photo application will never be updated again.) It does mean I don’t have as much flexibility with cloud sync, but for my work, having the additional workflow efficiency features in Classic is more important.

 

These things may seem odd decisions from your point of view, and that is totally understandable because it’s confusing. But it works both ways. I might look at cardiac surgery and say “I don’t understand why they do it that way, would it not be simpler to do it this way instead?” but I am sure you would be able to point out the medical history and hard lessons of why a method that looks simpler on the surface would actually be impractical or unsafe in practice.

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Explorer ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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thank you all for shedding some light on this topic, a very pragmatic one

I do love the tone of each contrbutor.

You talk to me, indeed very ignorant person regarding this matter, in a way you make me feel almost as a mate, thank you.

Your comment about Cardiac surgery is very appropriate too.

Obviously befor posting, I tried consulting the web and reading few Manuals and also experimented a bit (hands on approach or trial & error) with mixed results.

From a customer / user point of view I see a huge benefit to anyone making first steps into this domain, if some experts made a comprehensive tutorial on how to practically address this (ie. you wish to have a Cloud app to sync on the move, a more complete Desktop app leveraging more sophisticated tools and finally you wanna make them talk someway).

I presume I would not be the only happy person, many others would join and cherish.

Any of you volunteering to make this ? I am ready to prepare (the easy part - I know of course) a list of the basic questions.

Thank you again, eric

 

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Community Expert ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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"if some experts made a comprehensive tutorial on how to practically address this "

These might help-

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/kb/lightroom-feature-comparison.html

COMPARE LIGHTROOM & LIGHTROOM-CLASSIC FEATURES

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/help/which-lightroom-to-use.html

 

Regards. My System: Lightroom-Classic 14.0, Photoshop 26.0, ACR 17.0, Lightroom 8.0, Lr-iOS 9.0.1, Bridge 15.0.0, Windows-11.

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Explorer ,
Oct 30, 2023 Oct 30, 2023

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Thank you again

I knew this page

Unfortunately it only states differences between the 2 systems

It does not help those willing to use both systems, on which steps to follow from A to Z, to possibly leverage what they have in common

Best regards

Eric

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Community Expert ,
May 07, 2024 May 07, 2024

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From a customer / user point of view I see a huge benefit to anyone making first steps into this domain, if some experts made a comprehensive tutorial on how to practically address this (ie. you wish to have a Cloud app to sync on the move, a more complete Desktop app leveraging more sophisticated tools and finally you wanna make them talk someway).


By @eric32035440sekv

 

There's a dedicated "Cloud Sync" section in this book: https://www.lightroomqueen.com/shop/adobe-lightroom-classic-missing-faq/

 

It will answer most of your questions regarding using the cloud with Lightroom Classic. There's a companion book which is dedicated to the use of the Lightroom cloud eco-system.

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