Matching white balance from different Nikon cameras in Lightroom

[mijbil250456]

I'm currently using a Nikon Z8 alongside a z6ii to shoot weddings with, and switch between cameras constantly for different focal lengths.

Both cameras shoot manual white balance all day, set to 5500 +/-0, both for consistency, but also because I prefer to view warmer files in the viewfinder. It also makes me more aware of when tungsten light is presnet and when I might wish to use flash. 

When I import the RAW files to Lightroom, the WB 'as shot' values are 4950 +13 for the Z8, and  5300 +3 for the Z6ii. At the same values, the white balance looks correct for each camera, but the numeric values aren't the same. I get the fact that Adobe camera RAW creates it's own interpreation for each camera (though I do wish it didn't!)

I then like to adjust each scene from the day which has been shot on both cameras simulataneously, and this is where the problems arise. Say I want to warm a particular scene, I might bump up the WB to 6000, at which point the files look vastly different, simply because the WB value applied to each camera makes the files look different because of the difference to the 'as shot' values. 

I've created different WB presets for each camera based on WB tests with the Colorchecker passport. Effectively any Z8 files need an addition of WB 300 +12 adding to the Z6ii files for the same scene, so Z6ii files would be 6000 +/-0, and Z8 files 6300 +12 to look the same for that particular scene.  This kind of works in most situations, but it is a faff. I'm just wondering if there is another and potentially easier way of achieving the same thing and getting consistent results Shooting auto WB doesnt work, because all the numbers will be different based on the differing profiles, and then the only way to match WB would be with the dropper for each image. 

This white balance issue has lead me to try to ensure I only use the same camera bodies in the past, however this isn't always possible, if I use a second photographer who shoots Nikon, they will no doubt use different bodies from the Z series, and we should be able to mix and match bodies. 

I know if I import files to Capture One, I get the correct matching as shot values from both cameras, so I'm wondering why there is the variation with Adobe?

Any solutions and ideas most welcome!

[richardplondon]

You could consider using the relative WB buttons in the Library module - Quick Develop panel. These can batch apply a certain incremental warming or cooling of WB Temperature number (for example), regardless of the current values for this parameter being different per photo.

Those differences would be maintained, in other words.

To do this to a whole set of highlighted images together, you may want to turn on AutoSync (bottom left of tool panels on the right side of screen). Remembering to turn this mode off afterwards if so...! and noting that the AutoSync control for the Library module, and for the Develop module, work independently.

There is no ability (yet?) to perform relative adjustments any other way AFAIK - plugins aside. Sync, Copy/Paste, Presets and AutoSync in the Develop module all work by transferring absolute parameter values from one image onto another.

That's so far as the Basic panel adjustments. but another approach may be to have the Grading panel or Tone Curve panel change the general WB look of these photos, working as a kind of  'overlay' - distinct and independent from the Basic panel adjustments, which could then still remain as they variously are 'underneath'. A bulk relative adjustment by other means, in effect. Perhaps not technically optimal but may be a good pragmatic answer.

[mijbil250456]

Thanks Richard - I've tried the realtive buttons in the Quick develop panel, and the smallest increment seems to be +200 which is quite a lot, and then when I return to develop, the value has increased for that image, the same as it woud if I had adjusted it in the develop module. So I'm not sure how this is different or how it allows me to getter a better match of WB, hopefully you can enlighten me. 

I'll have a look at the grading panel again - I've tried this before and found that while it might look correct for one image, it can have a knock on effect to the skin tones in others - the same with trying to adjust the tint in a separate calibration panel preset for a specific camera. It does seem that as the root cause is the numeric value differences in white balance, this is how I should be applying any adjustments for consistency. 

[richardplondon]

Yes exactly, Quick Develop works on the exact same parameter as seen in Basic panel of Develop - only this way it can be changed incrementally relative to the current value. So when a + or - change is being applied to a batch of images, the variation in their starting values for this parameter won't be obliterated.  I don't have LrC in front of me right now and can't receall whether there is a way to use a smaller increment.

Another way to apply an incremental change of WB is using a Mask. One efficient way to select the entire image area is with a gradient. This Mask can apply whatever WB tweak, plus other things (helpful to name this rather than leaving it as Mask3 or whatever). And can be batch synced / copied and pasted (by name) to other images. This is then separately updatable in a way that's unrelated to whatever varying WB values the photos otherwise have in their Basic Panel parameters. Another way to do relative adjustment in effect.

I would agree that Grading is not quire the same thing as White Balance. And nor is Tone Curve. These all constitute a toolbox of different tools, each with different pros and cons.

[mijbil250456]

Another point I forgot to add - Adobe is creating new numerical as shot values on import, but if you apply the WB presets in Lightroom, say daylight for 'example', then this adjusts both files to 5500 + 10, and then they look vastly different. So daylight isn't a preset to match daylight, it is just a number, which is not accurate if the correct number whas not applied on import.

As a feature development, would it not make sense to allow you to add a numerical offset to the white balance on import, so that while Adobe makes it's own WB profile, you could adjust the number displayed on the slider to the value you want it to be (whilst not actuall adjsutng the white balance itself) , for the purposes of editing consistency when applying presets and editing a batch of images?

[richardplondon]

That's actually quite a nice concept: to switch a Raw based image from working in Kelvin numbers, to working around a zero point (similar to what is seen with non-Raw images - but with the ability to revert to Kelvin based adjustment if later wished).

More so than with as-shot WB from import, I can see the use of this after picking WB from a calibration target - if the image could then be 'reinitialised' so that both Temp and Tint were zeroed from there. I see some complications about how presets and syncing values would then work, between Raw images set one way and Raw images set the other way. This aspect of WB has already required exceptional treatment between Raw and non-Raw images. So this would behave like a new third class of image in that respect - 'neither fish nor fowl'

[TheDigitalDog]

The problem is, the Kelvin numbers define a very large scale of possible colors. You shouldn't expect differing cameras or raw converters to agree (and cameras are the wrong tool to even measure this). 

And each converter defines the meaning differently. Gotta do this visually. 

Case in point visually to the first sentence, any color on line is IS the same numeric value in Kelvin:

All colors alone this line are the same Kelvin value

Numbers are all over the map

[mijbil250456]

I can see that, I guess the solution I am looking for is to be able to adjust images by the same amount - so to be able to add say WB200 +3 to a group of images that are neutrally balanced but have differing numerical values, so that the end result is warmer images that are also consistent, but still potentially have differing numerical values. Eithter that or the idea I floated above of being able to offset or reset the numerical values to match as a starting point. Is there a way to put forward development suggestion, as I am sure I am not alone in wanting to achieve this?

[richardplondon]

you can click into this special sub-forum, to make a suggestion for how the software is further developed. Good idea to first search if a similar suggestion has already been made, and if so, join your support to that. One posted idea gathering 100 votes looks like very strong user support - while 100 similar posted ideas each with only 1 vote, looks (on average) like very weak user support for the change that they all suggest.

[D Fosse]

Given that camera profiles are model specific, would it be possible to have a customisation option in the profile section? Just basic adjustment - exposure, temperature, tint, reset. Perhaps by righ-clicking the profile in the profile browser.

I don't know if this would mean altering the actual white point numbers, or altering the profile behavior "behind" the numbers. Or if it's possible at all.