sRGB or Blurb icc profile better for soft proofing prior to Book module?

[Rockshead]

As I understand it images destined for Blurb are converted by the Lr engine into sRGB behind the scenes. To achieve best chance of colour accuracy in the finished Blurb book, is it better to softproof using a sRGB profile or the icc profile* offered on the Blurb Support website. On the surface this icc profile is recommended (by them) for their Booksmart process. Anyone know if that is similar to the Lr Book module process? There is no mention of Lr anywhere on the Blurb color management pages.

It would be great to pin down the answer to this. I cannot find any recommendation for best work practice aimed at getting good colour reproduction in these books; and trial and error, whilst acceptable in making inkjet prints, is a very expensive route when applied to printing a Blurb book.

* And even then, as far as I can see, there is no method for differentiating between the Blurb papers. It is just one profile to fit all.

[TheDigitalDog]

trshaner wrote:

There may be minor differences across different prints of the same books and/or across books printed by our different book-printing partners, including, but not limited to, slight variances in color fidelity and binding type. While we work very hard to keep our product as consistent as possible, this variation is a normal occurrence and is not considered a manufacturing defect or a defect in workmanship and does not qualify for a reprint."

Blurb doesn't have it's own printing facilities, which is why they state there could be variation in "color fidelity" and even binding type. So it could be hit-or-miss dependent on the location where the book is actually printed.

No excuse, it can be done. Yes it's hard. These are not the only guys doing this kind of work, using multiple companies and presses etc. Again, seems easier to reprint or build a statement that process control is hard, than just control the process. I've worked with enough Indigo's and other digtial presses to know it's doable but it's a daily process.

[psb2]

thanks for your help, the print was out of target, i got a reprint coupon from the a-level blurb customer support,

sorry for stressing this topic with my issue. i just was not sure, if it was my fault or the printer´s...

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

This is a tangental problem.  I successfully created a Blurb book last year, as discussed in this thread. I'm having a new problem and really need help from any of you who sounded like you were very seasoned at creating Blurb books in Lightroom. I'm currently running the most updated version of Lightroom v 5.6. I've just finished a new book and am getting the error message "Could not contact the Blurb Web Service. Check your internet connection." My internet connection is fine, my firewalls and anti-virus are turned off, I've restarted both Lightroom and my computer. Same problem. See my complete question here: Book Module Error "Could not contact the Blurb Web Service"???

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

This is a tangental problem.  I successfully created a Blurb book last year, as discussed in this thread. I'm having a new problem and really need help from any of you who sounded like you were very seasoned at creating Blurb books in Lightroom. I'm currently running the most updated version of Lightroom v 5.6. I've just finished a new book and am getting the error message "Could not contact the Blurb Web Service. Check your internet connection." My internet connection is fine, my firewalls and anti-virus are turned off, I've restarted both Lightroom and my computer. Same problem. See my complete question here: Book Module Error "Could not contact the Blurb Web Service"???

[Todd Shaner]

Hi Janine, there's an issue with using a Carriage Return in Captions. Not sure if this is your problem, but give it a look:

http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom_4_1_rc2_a_cr_or_lf_n_the_middle_of_a...

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

Turns out the problem preventing me from contacting the Blurb Web service from Lightroom was nothing to do with the formatting of the book, as many others have had problems with. My error "Could not contact the Blurb Web Service. Check your internet connection." was solved by contacting Adobe Tech Support by phone.

They helped me determine that my Windows 8 User Settings somehow had Internet settings which were conflicting and preventing connection to Blurb. They had me create a new user account in Windows 8 and under that user account, the book uploaded just fine.

The only downside was that the new user account didn't have access to my photo files and my Lightroom catalog, even when I gave it Admin rights. I simply used an external hard drive to copy my Lightroom catalog & the photo files I needed and then used that to access them in the new user account. I'm going to be contacting Lenovo to get help to simply transfer ALL my files and settings to the new user account.

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

P.S.  Regarding the original thread about how to get accurate color and contrast in a Blurb book, on this new book I followed the same process I had the last time, and the book came back with 100% accurate color and contrast!  See my blog post for my workflow to ensure accurate color when creating Blurb Books in the Lightroom Book Module.  Create Wedding Album Blurb Book Using Lightroom Book Module | As Seen by Janine's Photo Blog by Jani...

[Todd Shaner]

As_Seen_ by_Janine wrote:

They had me create a new user account in Windows 8 and under that user account, the book uploaded just fine.

The only downside was that the new user account didn't have access to my photo files and my Lightroom catalog, even when I gave it Admin rights. I simply used an external hard drive to copy my Lightroom catalog & the photo files I needed and then used that to access them in the new user account. I'm going to be contacting Lenovo to get help to simply transfer ALL my files and settings to the new user account.

That doesn't sound like a very good solution to me! I have no experience with Windows 8, but it sounds like MS has taken a page from Apple concerning "locking-down" permissions in Windows 8. If the issues is WIndows 8 file & folder permissions this may be helpful:

http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/take-ownership-of-files-folder-and-change-permissions-in-w...

Once permissions have been properly set these issues should no longer occur. I have full permissions set for all files & folders on my Windows 7 system. If you have a good antivirus application installed you are still protected even though your user account has access to critical system files. I'm running Norton Internet Security and haven't had a single security issue to date.

[ssprengel]

I see the same sort of look as TRShaner's screenshot shows for the DNG using its embedded settings on my calibrated non-wide-gamut monitor with a gamut close to sRGB.

With all the green removed and split-toning shifting the highlights towards pink, the skin is very magenta, just very light magenta, so my interpretation of what is happening is the book printing is not quite a bright as the screen so the magenta is just darker and more obvious.  The skin look relies on the colors almost being washed out and this may not be easy to replicate on the printed page, at least with the process Blurb uses.

There could be a different ambient and monitor brightness levels that makes what I see different than what you see. 

Maybe a scan or photograph of the book page would be good to see.

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

Peter,  Super tired from a long day, so my reply likely won't be thorough, but will give a quick reply, and then will read with more attention to detail ASAP. I didn't use the RAWs to create my Blurb book. I used this process:

1 - Initial post processing done with RAWS in regular LR Develop Module.

2 - export all to a subfolder of sRGB JPEGs.

3 - Created a COLLECTION using the sRGB JPEGs (this doesn't copy the files, merely creates a database "collection" of them, referencing their actual physical locations.

4 - Used the COLLECTION to create the Blurb book by opening the colletion in the Book Module.

5 - After my final calibration, I make any final edits RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK MODULE - just click in any photo in your book layout, then click the DEVELOP tab, to open that photo in the develop module. Once you have it adjusted to your liking, merely click BOOK MODULE again. Your changes will be there in the book, as well as in the collection, AND in the original sRGB JPEG file. This is part of the beauty of the book module, is you can make develpment adjustments to the book, right there from the book module.

6 - Note, this will NOT apply those changes to your RAW file which you orginally edited; only will change the sRGB JPEG you placed in the collection from which you made the book. So if you intend to use that RAW for other things, such as a print package, evaluate it independently of this process before printing.

7 - as trshaner pointed out to me a few weeks ago, he does not think you need to bother to convert to sRGB JPEGs before creating your PDF for final evaluation before sending the book to print, because the images are converted to sRGB when the PDF is created.

8 - However, it is not a fast process to upload to PDF, so I wanted to increase my odds that everything was good to go, BEFORE creating the PDF, decreasing the chance that I'd have to create more than one PDF before I was happy. To me, the most logical thing was to edit my images in the same color space and file format as they would end up being in the final print book, which is sRGB JPEG. Seemed to work for me - I was happy with the 1st PDF and very happy with the printed book.

Too tired to look up some of the names of more high end book printers, and also too tired to process some of the other great advice you got, so I'll give this thread some more time and attention, ASAP.

Janine

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

Hi Peter, 

I humbly admit that you have FAR more professional equipment than I have. My following advice is truly simple logic, not any specific professional expertise:

1 - I cannot help but wonder if I actually had better results because I did NOT use a wide gamut display, which sees far more than can be captured on paper. In fact my Blurb Wedding album was created on an old, dirt cheap, HP Pavilion laptop, which doesn't even have a high-end graphics card. The ONLY thing my set-up had "going for it' was that I religiously color calibrate immediately before placing print orders, or in this case a book order.

2 - You mentioned you'd color calibrated a week before. While this may not be your issue at all, I'll reiterate that, even though my display had been very recently calibrated, I did find that when I recalibrated immediately before ordering my book, I had to adjust qute a few photos. Color calibration is very unstable & while once a month or so is fine for simple viewing, I now always recalibrate before any print job to be sure.

3 - I might be misunderstanding something, but regarding this point you made about conversion to sRGB JPEGs:

- if i convert the RAWs in LR5 to jpg and use the JPGs in LR5 again to make a photobook, that would be a pitty regarding quality and sharpness,

as this is my main reason to use LR5 making a photobook, that i can prevent making jpgs, and loose quality, even with JPG qual. setting 10 or 12.

My understanding it that using Lightroom, while it does have the benefit of letting you post-process your photos as pure RAWs, and is non-destructive, nonetheless, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, if you choose to print a Blurb book from LR, your photos will immediately be converted to sRGB JPEGS upon the upload process. This is why I chose to convert them myself, use the sRGB JPEGs to make final edit decisions, and uploaded the sRGB JPEGs.

Regarding this question:

one question to your point 5 please:

- i appreciate that you found your workflow to maintain colors and quality, i just wonder why it has to be so much effort these days to print a simple photobook and do so much steps in advance to preserve color and quality. would there be a less time consuming workaround with LR5?

I honestly did not find the process to be all that time consuming. It was a pretty simple and straight-forward workflow. Post process my RAWS, do a quick export of the chosen images to convert to sRGB JPEGs, color-calibrate, then make final adjusments before the upload. This, compared to all the steps needed to soft proof in Photoshop was easy-peasy!

Regarding this question:

one more question to your blog page please: could you determine any difference comparing your own pdf/jpgs and the pdf you paid $4.99 coming back from blurb? i did not order this pdf, as i thought, it should look the same.

"13 – I also paid $4.99 for a PDF download. I did this even though I’d already created a PDF within Lightroom because I wanted to see what came back after the upload to Blurb. I have to say, I was very pleased with the PDF which I downloaded from Blurb immediately after uploading my order and I became really excited to see the printed books!"

I saw very little, if any difference between the PDF I created myself and the PDF I got back from Blurb. What little differences I did see, I decided would never be noticeable to the average client, who does not critcally evaluate things the same way we, as pro photographers do.

Regarding the overall problems with skin tones & oversaturation of your book, it may be possible that I just got lucky. I've read many reviews from folks who had the same problems you did. They advised sending the book back to Blurb, telling them exactly what you are dissatisfied with and why, and asking for a reprint. I read of many people who did this and got better results when they requested a reprint.

trshaner also gave you some advice about your LR Tone (Tonwert) settings maybe what is causing the problem. This was new info to me, but sounds like he might have been onto something.

Last of all, the thing to remember is this: Blurb is not, nor does it pretend to be a "High End" photography book process. Rather, they are targeted towards those who want an affordable way to offer clients photo books. I am happy I got so lucky with a really accurate reproduction of the book I sent in, but I also realize I may not always be this lucky. In the future, for a fine art coffee table book, for example, I may end up using a more high end book printer.

Janine

[TheDigitalDog]

As_Seen_ by_Janine wrote:

While the idea of sending a ProPhoto or RGB PDF sounds better than just going with sending sRGB, I thought this is not possible if uploading the book directly from Lightroom to Blurb, which automatically converts images into sRGB JPEGs. Are you referring to creating a PDF with ProPhoto or RGB images, and then using the PDF to Book option which is available at the link you provided? 

Export Book to PDF still produces the images in sRGB according to Acrobat Pro's preflight.

Update, my bad, you can select ProPhoto RGB and Adobe RGB (1998), preflight indicates those are the output color space. But, what does Blurb's RIP do? We don't know. It could convert directly to CMYK, it could convert first to sRGB. Possible to test this by sending a PDF with the right image both ways and examining the output. Use something like a Granger Rainbow. Build it in ProPhoto RGB or even Lab. Export the book both ways (sRGB and ProPhoto). Send both for output. Should see a difference.

Message was edited by: Andrew Rodney

[web-weaver]

Here's what Blurb says about color space conversion in PDF to Book: http://www.blurb.com/pdf-to-book-color-guides

[TheDigitalDog]

web-weaver wrote:

Here's what Blurb says about color space conversion in PDF to Book: http://www.blurb.com/pdf-to-book-color-guides

And after the very first sentence, you can move no as it's quite silly: Our digital printers use the standard four color print process that most every printing press uses – CMYK.

[Todd Shaner]

I tested this using an Adobe RGB CCPP image. PS shows three patches as out of gamut for the sRGB profile and four different patches for the Blurb profile. However when doing the actual conversion direct to Blurb.icc versus to sRGB and then to Blurb.icc there is no visual difference. The actual patch values also are within <0.5% RGB readings.

This test is limited to the gamut represented in the 18 color patches on the CCPP and we  know from the 3D Gamut comparison in my post #11 that there is some deep blue-green (i.e. tuquoise) and yellow spectrum that falls outside the sRGB color space. If your images don't have heavily saturated areas with these colors then using sRGB images is of no practical consequence.

Given that soft proofing doesn't tell you the "degree" that a color is out-of-gamut the best check is to print a test book with images that may have color issues.

(Adobe RGB profile JPEG Upload)

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

trshaner - 

Thanks for some excellent tips on watching my white and black clipping, and watching for retaining details in my highlights and shadows. And from all I'm reading, I believe your idea of a test book with some of the wedding photos is a great idea; especially including in the test book those photos with colors most likely to be out of gamut. Thanks.

[As_Seen_ by_Janine]

Thanks twenty_one for saving me a world of wasted time going through and pointlessly soft proofing 317 images!