Use AI Denoise WITHOUT using "Raw Details"??

[JRista]

So, I've been using the AI denoise capability for a while. In the past, it had this "Enhance" option, that did not seem to do a whole lot. It made MINOR enhancements to details, but that was all, which was fine with me.

I recently updated LRC to the latest version, and now the "Enhance" is called "Raw Details"...and I really do not like it!! Problem is, I cannot seem to disable it. It is always automatically enabled whenever I choose to denoise or do super resolution... 

I have become somewhat reliant on Denoise to clean up the noise in my images now, as it does a pretty good job, and its faster than my manual approach that I've used in the past. However, I really do NOT want AI to be deciding for me, what details are "real" and need "enhancement" (rabid embellishemnt is often more the case!!) vs. what is not detail and can be obliterated. It doesn't get it right, a lot of the time, and the obliteration happens right where details are often critical, at the beginning of the transition zone from sharply in focus to defocused. 

IS there any way to disable raw details, and get JUST the AI denois capability? I am just not a fan of what Adobe is doing with my details. I use a Canon EOS R5, which is a very high resolution camera, with their 100mm IS Macro lens, which is very very sharp. I am able to produce incredible details on my own, and they are just how I like them. I really don't like, need or want Adobe's AI to be mucking around with anything else in my images...I really JUST want to correct noise.

Is that an option at all? The documentation they have for the "Enhance" capabiltiy is not very useful. It does not really tell you anything other than what's obvious from just looking at  the UI. Is there some hidden configuration option somewhere, or something, that would allow me to disable this rabid "Raw Details" feature and just get the AI denoise?

If that is not an option...does anyone know of any quality alternatives to LRC's Denoise feature, that will JUST do noise reduction, do as good a job (or better!) at it as LRC, and NOT muck around with my details? At this point, given how much I dislike the raw details enhancement results, I'd be willing to buy a plugin or something that would do the trick. (Adobe, if you are reading...please, STOP forcing your AI crap on us!! Some of us want to stick with processing our images using our OWN personal, built-in neural networks!)

[JohanElzenga · Accepted solution]

No, there is no such option.

[DdeGannes]

@JRista , you stated " I use a Canon EOS R5, which is a very high resolution camera, with their 100mm IS Macro lens, which is very very sharp. I am able to produce incredible details on my own, and they are just how I like them. I really don't like, need or want Adobe's AI to be mucking around with anything else in my images...I really JUST want to correct noise."

If you are totally satisfied with the results provided by your Camera Manufacturer use the software provided by them to process the RAW files.

You cannot do noise reduction in LrC or any other third party raw processing software without using their software to de mosaic the raw data.

[JRista]

I've used Canon's software in the past, and its not great. I prefer to use LR.

I don't think you are quite understanding the issue. LR demosaics ALL my images, just fine. My problem is not LR demosaicing my data. My problem is that when I use the "Denoise" tool, which is AI powered, Adobe is FORCING me to ALSO accept their "Raw Details" AI-powered detail enhancement AS WELL. 

I just want quality denoising. I don't want arbitrary and uncontrollable detail enhancements that I cannot disable. I don't know why they added that, and disabled the ability to disable it, but the feature worked just fine before without all of the extra detail enhancements. I like my details "natural", and in some cases I might defocus just very slightly to keep some details from just becoming too darn sharp.

Adobe is undoing what I am choosing to do. Its not like they do it every single time they demosaic an image. I shoot RAW, 100% of the time. Every single image I've ever processed in Lightroom has been demosaiced by Adobe's NORMAL routine. What I am specifically referring to is the "Raw Details" OPTION (always grayed out unless I deselect all other options, at which point its moot) in the "Enhance..." modal dialog. This is different, distinct, from the normal demosaicing that Adobe does with Lightroom (or Camera Raw in Photoshop) and the results, when all I wanted was to denoise, are just too darn sharp for my tastes.

[DdeGannes]

@JRista , then @JohanElzenga post apples at least at present.

When the "Enhance" feature was released the info provided by Adobe indicted that changes may not be restricted to using only raw data images in the future.

You can create a new thread under the "Idea" section and make a new feature request. See if you can create support from other users.

[DdeGannes]

@JRista , You state "Adobe is FORCING me to ALSO accept their "Raw Details" AI-powered detail enhancement AS WELL."

As far as I can tell you can deselect the option to use Raw Detail. See the screen capture.

[JohanElzenga]

You have also unchecked Denoise in the screenshot. I am typing this on my iPad, so I cannot verify it, but AFAIK, you cannot check Denoise and keep Raw Details unchecked. I assume these are integrated processes, which would also explain why Denoise only works with raw files.

[DdeGannes]

@JohanElzenga , Correct I can see that now in the daylight. See screen shot.

[Ricky336]

As mentioned, there isn't an option to use Denoise with Raw Details unchecked. So, have you tried Topaz. It can be used as a plug-in with Lightroom Classic:

Lightroom Classic | Topaz Photo AI (topazlabs.com)

[Jao vdL]

So your request is to do denoise on an image that was demosaiced by the normal less good algorithm that Lightroom uses in the standard interface? Important to realize that you can't do a denoise without doing a demosaic first. I honestly can't imagine why you would want to do this as the raw details algorithm is far better than the standard demosiac and so you are missing out on correcting some real problems with the standard demosaic (here are some examples of the real problems with the normal demosaic: http://lagemaat.blogspot.com/2019/02/enhanced-details-and-what-kind-of.html ) but I guess it makes sense for it to be an option. I think I read on this forum that Adobe might be working on doing denoise on already demosaiced images so in the future you might be able to first demosaic by creating a linear dng file and then doing a denoise on it.

[JRista]

No, that is not my request. My request is to use the ai denoise, without the rogue detail enhancements that seem to be occurring with the "Raw Details" option as it now functions in the latest version of LR. 

I've been using LRC's AI-powered Denoise for a while now. I NEVER ran into the problem I am having now, where my images appear to be very over-sharpened with a sharpening algorithm. That's what I'm getting now. 

FWIW, I've never run into any of the more extreme issues that article you linked demonstrated. I am not even sure all of those examples are from LRC, one I am pretty sure was from Nikon's raw processing sofrware. I've never seen the grid patterned artifacts like that in Lightroom. 

The article also clearly states this near the beginning:

" For some cameras that have non-Bayer mosaic sensors such as Fuji's X-trans sensors, this is enormously impactful and improves almost every image. However for regular Bayer sensors, you will rarely see any improvement. I estimate that perhaps 1% of my images show any improvement and then you will only see it in humongous prints. The problems manifest in artifacts visible in the standard demosaic and are solved by the enhanced detail feature."

In my case, any image I have sharply focused, looks great (very detailed, but not overtly detailed or overly sharp) when I just import into LR and examine them. The key issue is noise, as in many of these shots I'm using higher ISO settings (800, 1600, maybe 3200). Historically, all I really had to do in the past was hit the "Denoise" button, denoise somewhere around 50%, and the noise would vanish and the details would hardly change in any particularly notable way.

NOW, with the latest version of LRC installed (which I only installed recently, so how it worked previously is pretty fresh in my mind), every time I use the "Denoise" feature, the details appear much sharper than before. In some cases, it looks like someone ran a basic sharpening algorithm that increases acutance, leaving what looks like an undue halo of bright and dark around the edges of the details that previously existed. I don't like that....don't know what else to say.  All I want is the AI powered noise reduction. I don't want anything else. Now it seems as though it is impossible not to get Adobe's enhanced details as well as noise reduction, if you use the AI powered Denoise. Or...you are stuck using their classic NR tools... 

Someone linked that Topaz has AI denoise now. I think I'll give that a try and see how it works. If it can denoise without also changing how my details look, that might solve my problem. 

[John R Ellis]

"I recently updated LRC to the latest version, and now the "Enhance" is called "Raw Details".."

To clarify, prior to LR 10.3, Raw Details was called simply "Enhance". Then LR 10.3 added Super Resolution, and the Enhance command had two options, Raw Details (the prior Enhance) and Super Resolution:

https://www.lightroomqueen.com/whats-new-in-lightroom-classic-10-3/ 

Denoise was added to the Enhance command in 12.3:

The default process version in LR 12.2 (prior to Denoise) was Version 5. Since 12.3, the process version is 6.

In one test I did, Raw Details produces different results between PV 5 and PV 6. Here's the difference as computed in Photoshop's Layers:

I don't know if this is a difference in the Raw Details algorithm or some other difference between PV 5 and 6. You can download the PSD containing both versions to examine for yourself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dry0uihiyxvps3e/enhance-v5-vs-v6.2024-09-08.psd?dl=0

The process version prior to LR 10.3 (when the Enhance command acquired Super Resolution) was also PV 5. In theory, different versions of LR should produce the same results using the same process version, though I think in practice there have sometimes been minor differences.

[JRista]

Thanks for the comparison. Will take a look once I get back to my computre with LRC on it.

I only recently upgraded to the latest LRC, and I hadn't upgraded in a while before. I was actually using the previous version maybe a week ago, and the difference between how Denoise worked before, and how it works now with the Raw Details, seems quite different to my eyes. The details are RADICALLY SHARP now... Details were always sharp with this particular camera, but they didn't ever look like they had a sharpening algorithm applied (i.e. one that adjuts acutance). With Raw Details in the latest version of LRC, my details now DO look like they have been sharpend by an algorithm that increass acutance. 

I've ended up dropping my use of Denoise, and am back to using the classic LR noise reduction tools. They are not as good as Denoise was previously, notably in how the classic tools have no smarts with regards to what's noise vs. what is legitimate detail like Denoise does. 

-\_O.O_/-

[perfect_goal1587]

Tbh, I wonder on what ISO you you use AI Denoise. your example image should not need it. You see noise at 100% prehaps, but will never see it on socials or even when you export it to 50% MP... even on prints you will not see it. I think you are pixelpeeping to much. Btw also have the R5 and R5ii, I only use AI denoise when I push images hard, like with shadows, or high ISO images from 4000 onwards if needed

[John R Ellis]

@JRista: "I was actually using the previous version maybe a week ago, and the difference between how Denoise worked before, and how it works now with the Raw Details, seems quite different to my eyes."

Please upload a sample original raw (not the denoised DNG) to Dropbox, Google Drive, or similar and post the sharing link here. That will allow us to determine if Denoise / Raw Details has changed recently and in which version. If you also post screenshots calling out where the details look bad to you, that will make the discussion more concrete and productive.

Adobe hasn't announced any changes to Denoise in its release notes, but it would be good to know if something has changed under the covers.

[JRista]

Ok, so, I've been researching here. From what I understand now, using the Enhance AI feature (which is what the Denoise button in the Detail panel of LR's develop module launches) is processing the RAW data directly from the bayer matrix, to produce a new image stored in a DNG file.

From what I can gather (couldn't find any official documentation from Adobe that actually states this clearly), Raw Details is basicallty the new AI-powered debayering algorithm. The AI powered denoise and super resolution features, operate DURING demosaicing. At least, as best I can tell. So, based on that, it is indeed correct that Raw Details cann't be disabled, because that is the core, foundational AI algorithm that is actually performing the debayering of the raw file when it operates. 

I've now run this on a ton of images that I've been working with today. There are certain kinds of content, that the new AI powered debayering seems to just...make very sharp. Notably things that are in the yellows or yellow oranges (I was working on photos of such objects when I originally started this thread). I've been working with some different objects today (its all wood turned items I make and sell), and while the images are definitely sharper, they don't seem to appear the same as the details of the objects I was working with yesterday. I wasn't pixel peeping before, but I have been today. I wouldn't say anymore, that I'm seeing artificial acutance.

Comparing the actual object details to what I'm seeing on screen, I guess they are indeed *mostly* real details...its mostly that this new "raw details" based debayering is just incredibly sharp. Further, I think that I am also seeing SOME aspects of how the AI "decides" to render certain details, and in some of those cases the details are changed a bit from the original object. Sometimes certain kinds of details that have nuanced little aspects to them, might get more of an artificial-looking nature to them with the new debayering when using the Enhance feature.

AI produce images by passing the data through a neural network, and the network is essentially producing an entirely new image produced entirely by the network, rather than filtering or otherwise directly modifying image data. So...I am just going to have to decide whether using AI is worth it or not. I may give the Topaz Photo AI a try, see  if that is any better for my needs/preferences, but it is again AI, so its not quite the same as a classic noise reduction algorithm. 

In any case, I understand now why "Raw Details" (which was previously "Enhance Details" in the previous version of LR I was using...honestly don't remember what version it was, but I hadn't updated it in a while) basically IS the AI algorithm, which is doing the debayering and any chosen enhancements. So no, it cannot be disabled...its foundational to the entire feature. That's my answer. 

[Jao vdL]

Yes that's what I've been trying to tell you. The demosaic is a fundamental part of the denoise. In priciple you could use the standard demosaic but they would have to redesign the entire algorithm. The reason that yellow details get more pronounced is what is in my old blog post. It has to do with red (which makes yellow together with green) has only one pixel in the 4-pixel Bayer pattern. So the AI demosaic algorithm (which hasn't actually changed much as far as I know since being introduced but might be better trained nowadays) works harder on details that rely on red. This is what caused the artefacts in my old blog post on the yellow leaves and on the rock edge which the AI algorithm fixes entirely. I also have an example image of car tail light trails in a a canyon at dusk that has significant Bayer mosaic artefacts on the trails that the AI algorithm rescues. It also helps tremendously with neon lighting that also tends to get the stair step artefacts and with moiré artefacts.   

[RocknRolla128]

I think you are not getting great help because of the phrasing emphasized in your question... The problem is not so much that AI denoise is applying "Raw Details". The problem is that "Raw Details" is horribly ugly and destructive to the image now. Whereas in prior versions of LRC and under it's former name, it was beautiful.

It looks like the only fix is to roll back to a prior version of Lightroom... This is going to be PITA, because the catalog format is different. The older version will probably need an older catalog file. Still, I'll probably archive everything and do that. Or try to set up a copy somewhere for one-off denoise. Adobe's denoise was astoundingly good. As of this version, it's awful. And I shot some high ISO senior protraits, relying on it... The old denoise would have saved them. The new version puts ugly blotches on her face.

Does anyone know the most recent version of lightroom that doesn't have this new "Raw Details" code?

[Jao vdL]

V14.0.1 went back to the Denoise that doesn't use the AI part of Apple's chip anymore so it should be identical to the earlier denoise. The version in 13 and 14.0 used this part of Apple's chip but that was leading to artefacts in extremely deep shadows or extremely underexposed images. You must have been shooting at really extreme conditions and really extreme ISO if you were able to see these artefacts.