Yellowish Color shift with Monitor Profile

[miralem]

Hello,

since i changed from Canon to Fuji, i also left Canons Digital Photo professional (which i loved ...) for Lightroom classic.

So here is my problem:

Since 10 years i am using a Spyder Monitor callibration tool on Windows. It worked always very well. My Monitor was always showing me, what my prints looked like ...

Now i realize, that when i`m starting Lightroom, i get a yellowish Color shift on all my photos in the Development tool.

This Color shift looks nearly the same, when i load the Monitor Profile ICC in Canons DPP.

I tried this only for testing, because the Monitor Profile is active at startup of Windows, so everything on the screen is color corrected. So there is no need to load the Monitor Profile again in the software ...

But when i load the ICC Monitor Profile in DPP, it looks the same yellowish color shift as does Lightroom.

When i:

1. delete the ICC Profile in Windows

2. than start Lightroom

3. than reload the ICC Profile

Everything looks "right".

But when i start the cropping tool and finished, the yellowish color shift comes back.

BUT, when i change to full screen, the yellowish color shift is gone. When i close the full screen, the color shift is back.

So, i tried to find some informations about color management, but i realized, that there is no real color management in Lightroom, only a softproof.

Any ideas?

[Todd Shaner]

miralem  wrote

Hello,

since i changed from Canon to Fuji, i also left Canons Digital Photo professional (which i loved ...) for Lightroom classic.

Now i realize, that when i`m starting Lightroom, i get a yellowish Color shift on all my photos in the Development tool.

This Color shift looks nearly the same, when i load the Monitor Profile ICC in Canons DPP.

Previous to using LR how did you set DPP's Color Management settings shown below and what do mean by, "when i load the Monitor Profile ICC in Canons DPP." Also do you see this issue with both Canon and Fuji raw files (i.e. all files)?

Installing LR Classic should have no affect on DPP so there's something else you're now doing differently that's causing the issue. It could very well be the problem was there all along because you simply had the below 'Color matching settings' set to sRGB and weren't using the monitor profile with DPP. LR ALWAYS uses the OS system display profile, which now reveals you have an issue with you're display profile.

What version of Windows and LR Classic are you using? What exact model Spyder calibrator and monitor are you using?

[Jao vdL]

I tried this only for testing, because the Monitor Profile is active at startup of Windows, so everything on the screen is color corrected. So there is no need to load the Monitor Profile again in the software ...

This is actually not true. On windows, only apps that are explicitly color managing show the correct color. The loading of the monitor profile at startup only changes the gamma correction and white balance correction on the monitor and not the rest. You will not see the right color in apps that are not color managed. Internet Explorer is an example of an app that is not color managed and never shows the correct colors because of it. DPP is only color managed if you set it up as Todd shows. If the setting is set for sRGB it will NOT color manage correctly.

Note that the difference can be really large between color managed and non color managed apps if you are on a wide gamut monitor. Also some wide gamut monitors can simply not be calibrated correctly using older Spyder (and other brands) calibrators.

[miralem]

Hi there, and thanks for your reply!

Hmm, as i bought my spider 3, i went to a Photo trade show where i met Spyder AND Cannon staff members and i explicitly asked them, how to set up DPP. And both told me not to load the Monitor profile into DPP (so i think the only way to do so, is to select sRGB)

as i would double the correction ...

Im using the spyder3 on Windows 10 with a HP LP2475w, which is not wide gammut, but 99,9% Adobe RGB.

I just purchased the Adobe package, so i hope i am very up to date!

@ Todd

"Loading ICC Profile in DPP" means: "Use the OS settings".

@ Jao

From time to time i check the Monitor profile, by switching it off and on to see some difference.

So you mean, that all changes that i see is a white balance correction?

Until today i remember those words from the Spyder and Canon members, that told me, that the screen is completly calibrated...

By switching the monitor profile off, i always see the difference (not that big difference) on "All" Applications.

So, im a little bit confused now!

...

[miralem]

confused, cause my prints on my canon printer, with canon paper and canon ink was always very near to the colors on the screen ...

Maybe i had a lot of luck!

[Todd-Russell]

miralem  wrote

Hi there, and thanks for your reply!

Hmm, as i bought my spider 3, i went to a Photo trade show where i met Spyder AND Cannon staff members and i explicitly asked them, how to set up DPP. And both told me not to load the Monitor profile into DPP (so i think the only way to do so, is to select sRGB)

as i would double the correction ...

That is totally incorrect and bogus information! You should be using the settings as shown in the DPP Preferences screenshot in my Reply #1 above.

miralem  wrote

Im using the spyder3 on Windows 10 with a HP LP2475w, which is not wide gammut, but 99,9% Adobe RGB.

I just purchased the Adobe package, so i hope i am very up to date!

99.9% Adobe RGB is wide gamut, which is much wider than sRGB. There may be an sRGB emulation mode setting in the display controls, but I suggest not using it if you want to benefit from the display's wider gamut. However, this means non-color managed apps and browsers will appear incorrect with over-saturated reds. So the choice is yours, but either way all color managed apps including DPP should be setup to use the OS system display profile.

Of course you need to have a proper profile, which you should be able to attain by following thedigitaldog's suggestions. In addition to his suggestions make sure you are setting the monitor's controls for Custom Color, 6500K, and sRGB mode set (or not set for 99.9 Adobe RGB) your preference. In the Spyder software also set it for 6500K Color Temperature, 2.2 Gamma, and 100-120 cd/m2. The other control settings on your display should be unselected or set to OFF.

Here are TFT Central's calibration settings a user supplied from a Spyder3 Elite calibration run. Your settings will be slightly different, but this gives you some idea of where they need to be. These are adjusted using the 'Advanced' mode in the Spyder software.

Model	Colorimeter	Source	Notes	Brightness	Contrast	R	G	B	Preset Mode
HP LP2475W	Spyder3 Elite	User		15	66	251	222	236	Custom Color

[TheDigitalDog · Accepted solution]

miralem  wrote

So, i tried to find some informations about color management, but i realized, that there is no real color management in Lightroom, only a softproof.

That's not close to accurate. If you want to get an idea of color management in LR:

http://digitaldog.net/files/18Color%20Management%20in%20Lightroom.pdf

Yeah, it's old but nothing has changed with respect to color management there.

Next, if the profile for the display is sound, what you see in Develop is 'correct' but the Spyder products are not that great and then there are the settings used for calibration and resulting profile that may or may not be ideal. But the Develop module, at 1:1 or greater is fully color managed preview and will match what you see in other applications.

So to trouble shoot this yellow that sometimes occurs:

1. Check GPU settings (on or off) and try a different setting. This is found in preferences.

2. It could be a faulty ICC display profile. Recalibrate and build a new one.

3. It could be how the profile was built. Set your software to build Version 2 (V2) not V4 profiles.

4. It could be the type of profile built. Try Matrix instead of LUT based profile. Again, that's a setting in whatever software you use to calibrate and profile the display.

[Jao vdL]

Good advice from the dog here! Very likely this is a bad display profile.

[Jao vdL]

Didn't even notice that but the Spyder3 will not calibrate a wide gamut monitor correctly. It can't measure the color primaries correctly. It will create bad profiles in that case.

[TheDigitalDog]

The Spyder is just a pretty poor piece of hardware as outlined here with actual colorimetric testing (compared to the competition):

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=103094.msg1004707#msg1004707

And some data about the newer version (X)

My first impressions are that it's low light resolution and black end stability aren't that great:

The Y channel seems to be in 0.013 cd/m^2 steps. When cold I get a black Y value of -0.014, but when it warms up to 25 degrees C I get 0.054 cd/m^2.

Haven't had a chance to check it's spectral performance yet though.

[Todd-Russell]

It uses enhanced W-CCFL backlighting, which is wide gamut. I did a quick search and users of the Spyder3 are saying that the Spyder software Version 4 has a matrix fix that makes the Spyder 3 pucks usable with wide gamut displays:

Spyder 3 + wide gamut : CORRECTION: PC Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

[miralem]

Hi Guys,

ok, i read all the above mentioned Links and understand most.

Thanks very much for that.

But what i dont understand:

1. I was always a little bit confused by the OSD Menu of the Monitor. I can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, 5000K, 6500K, 9000K or custom (RGB sliders).

NOW I think, all settings adjust the sliders directly.

But: here is what i dont understand. The Spyder 3 Software ask me, if i have RGB sliders in the OSD. So i set my screen to custom, to be able to correct the RGB, how spyder tells me.

But there is no question if i have a wide gammut screen or not. So, how does the OS or Lightroom know about my screen Gammut?

Does the ICC Profile manage the translation from Adobe RGB to sRGB?

So my screen is able to produce Adobe RGB. Now i would think, the screen is always Adobe RGB and the ICC profile changes the colors to the embedded profile in the jpg?

@ Todd

You mentioned above, that my screen has a sRGB "Emulation" on OSD. Yes, but when i select it, i cant change the RGB sliders in OSD.

So i think, the OSD is changing the RGB sliders automatically, to fit sRGB ...

1. 2.

Maybe my problem is, that i make an Profile based on sRGB on an Adobe RGB screen...

1. 3.

Using Lightroom as a RAW converter is only one part. The second part is my Video production with premiere pro. And all my Video exports are based on REC.709. And Rec.709 is nearly the same as sRGB.

As i know, there is no color management in premiere pro. Only a checkbox to convert to broadcast colors, but no option to select a monitor profile.

1. 4.

Which colorimeter would you prefer?

[Todd Shaner]

miralem  wrote

1. I was always a little bit confused by the OSD Menu of the Monitor. I can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, 5000K, 6500K, 9000K or custom (RGB sliders).

NOW I think, all settings adjust the sliders directly.

But: here is what i dont understand. The Spyder 3 Software ask me, if i have RGB sliders in the OSD. So i set my screen to custom, to be able to correct the RGB, how spyder tells me.

Custom is the correct setting, which allows you to "manually" calibrate your monitor by adjusting its RGB controls for proper white balance. You also need to adjust its Brightness and Contrast controls as instructed by the Sypder software app during the calibration process. Please also follow the thedigitaldog's instructions for selecting ICC Version 2 and Matrix profile type in the Spyder software Preferences or Advanced menus. Also set Gamma for 2.2 and Luminance 120 cd/m2.

miralem  wrote

But there is no question if i have a wide gammut screen or not. So, how does the OS or Lightroom know about my screen Gammut?

Monitor calibration is a two step process: 1) Manual calibration using the monitor's OSD controls, and 2) Profiling, which creates a display profile that tells the OS and color managed applications about the gamut and other parameters of your now calibrated display.

miralem  wrote

So my screen is able to produce Adobe RGB. Now i would think, the screen is always Adobe RGB and the ICC profile changes the colors to the embedded profile in the jpg?

These are two separate processes. Lightroom uses it's own ProPhoto RGB Gamma 1.0 working color space. The embedded profile in the image file is used to "convert" the image to LR's working color space. That image is then output to your display with a 2nd conversion using the display profile you created and assigned by the OS to your monitor.

miralem  wrote

You mentioned above, that my screen has a sRGB "Emulation" on OSD. Yes, but when i select it, i cant change the RGB sliders in OSD.

So i think, the OSD is changing the RGB sliders automatically, to fit sRGB ...

Maybe my problem is, that i make an Profile based on sRGB on an Adobe RGB screen...

You can use the sRGB OSD setting, but it limits the display's gamut and doesn't allow you to "manually" adjust its white balance using the RGB controls. The Spyder software will correct it, but at a loss of dynamic range, which can cause banding in fine gradients onscreen. That is why I suggest using the 'Custom' setting.

miralem  wrote

Using Lightroom as a RAW converter is only one part. The second part is my Video production with premiere pro. And all my Video exports are based on REC.709. And Rec.709 is nearly the same as sRGB.

As i know, there is no color management in premiere pro. Only a checkbox to convert to broadcast colors, but no option to select a monitor profile.

This issue has been "fixed in Premiere Pro 13.0 and later versions, but you'll need to manually change settings to enable it and have a proper GPU.

How Display Color Management in Premiere Pro works - PremierePro.net

miralem  wrote

Which colorimeter would you prefer?

Try your Spyder3 with the version 4 software first and see how well that works. If you still have issues I would recommend the X-Rite i1 Display Pro as the least expensive calibrator I would recommend. The lower cost calibrators all lack needed features for a full control advanced mode monitor calibration.

[miralem]

Hi Todd,

i checked all above mentioned settings:

6500K

120cd/m

2.2 Gamma

V2 preset

All these settings are there!

Kelvin, Gamma and Luminance i set to these values years ago and used all the time. V2 was set in the software.

My Spider Software is Version 4.02.

I`ve tried the Profile from TFT Central that you mentioned above. Even when i cant go with the OSD settings (with brithness on 16 im getting a Luminance of 75cd/m, and i have to set Blue to 205, to see other colors than blue...)

With the profile from TFT central i can still see a small tint of yellow on the skin tones, but its a big difference to my profiles. And i created 5 or 6 since yesterday.

I think i will give the X-rite a try. And if that doesnt help, maybe my Monitor is too old ...It has 5200h of running

But all in all, i understand everything, you told me. And im very happy now, to understand the rules.

Thank you very much for your time and knowledge.

I think we can close this topic!

[Todd Shaner]

5200 hours will cause yellow shift due to aging of the W-CCFL backlight, which is much less stable than an LED backlight. However, you should still be able to correct that using the Spyder software RGB control adjustment with monitor's OSD set to 'Custom' mode.

Here's a record of the calibration settings required for an HP 2509m CCFL backlight monitor showing how as it ages the backlight color temperature drops (i.e. shift to yellow). This requires increasing the RGB controls B setting and lowering the R and G settings. You will also need to increase the Brightness and Contrast controls. Eventually, you will also need to reduce the Luminace (cd/M2) setting to achieve he desired 6500 color temperature. As you can see in the below calibration results screenshot from 2014/12/22 this 4+ year old CCFL backlight monitor was still able to achieve 6500K, 2.2 Gamma, and 100 cd/M2.

Try using 100 cd/M2 setting and adjusting the controls during the Spyder calibration similar to what I had to do below. What version Spyder3 are you using?

Monitor Controls	2010 09/06	2010 12/29	2011 07/03	2011 10/22	2012 03/11	2012 08/23	2012 10/23	2013 04/03	2013 08/08	2013 11/27	2014 03/16	2014 07/02	2014 09/15	2014 12/22
Contrast	70	70	70	70	70	70	75	75	85	85	85	85	85	85
Brightness	20	26	25	24	27	33	34	37	38	49	49	50	52	54
R	255	255	255	255	246	216	205	196	157	127	127	127	127	127
G	221	230	236	246	220	196	182	175	126	102	103	109	108	108
B	230	235	240	253	255	255	255	255	215	199	208	205	205	220

[miralem]

I just purchased the x-rite i1 Display pro as you mentioned and i just tried it out.

MAN, what a difference!

First at all, i set the RGB sliders to 6500K with the Spyder software. X-rite shows me 5100K!

And all the measering is in real time!!! No more yellowish tint in Lightroom!!!!

But i have 3 more questions:

1. How to setup the right ballance between Brightness and Contrast on OSD? The contrast is not mentioned in the calibrating process (not in spyder and not in x-rite software).

2. RGB sliders

As the slyders are going from 0-255, i was always thinking off Bytes. 8 bit per channel.

So i thought, lowering RGB for example from 255/255/255 to 128/128/128 would reduce the Gammut?

3.Softproof

Do i have to set softproof to sRGB, when im working on RAWs, that im going to convert to sRGB JPGs?

Or:

are the sliders only relatives to each other, without effecting the Gammut wideness?

In this case, 128/128/128 would be the same as 255/255/255 or 200/200/200.

But im still happy with the results, Lightroom shows me!!!

THANKS!

[Todd Shaner]

miralem  wrote

I just purchased the x-rite i1 Display pro as you mentioned and i just tried it out.

MAN, what a difference!

First at all, i set the RGB sliders to 6500K with the Spyder software. X-rite shows me 5100K!

And all the measering is in real time!!! No more yellowish tint in Lightroom!!!!

Most likely the RGB color filters in your Spyder3 puck have probably shifted due to aging. I had a similar issue with the older Eye One Display 2 puck model, which was reading about 1000K higher than the i1Display Pro in measurement mode. This was on the above monitor, which was standard gamut so clearly the puck's filters have drifted or may have never been accurate at time of manufacture.

miralem  wrote

1. How to setup the right ballance between Brightness and Contrast on OSD? The contrast is not mentioned in the calibrating process (not in spyder and not in x-rite software).

Generally, the onscreen instructions say to set the Contrast control to 100 and then you use the Brightness control to set the Luminace level to 120cd/m2 or whatever value you want for your target for your target. I found  a setting lowering the Contrast control to about 75 range provided better results so you can try both.

miralem  wrote

2. RGB sliders

As the slyders are going from 0-255, i was always thinking off Bytes. 8 bit per channel.

So i thought, lowering RGB for example from 255/255/255 to 128/128/128 would reduce the Gammut.

I started with them all set to 255, but you can certainly use 128. It makes no difference other than slightly affecting the Brightness setting. You then adjust the three controls to achieve the target 6500 K Color Temperature.

miralem  wrote

3.Softproof

Do i have to set softproof to sRGB, when im working on RAWs, that im going to convert to sRGB JPGs?

During normal editing there's no need to use Soft Proof. Soft proof is used to check for out of gamut areas in the target output, which you can then choose to correct. In general it's a non-issue since there's not a whole lot you can do anyhow.

miralem  wrote

are the sliders only relatives to each other, without effecting the Gammut wideness?

In this case, 128/128/128 would be the same as 255/255/255 or 200/200/200.

That is correct. Just use the 1i Profiler software that came with your i1 Display Pro in advanced mode. I haven't used it in a while so if you have a specific question about settings provide a screenshot.

[TheDigitalDog]

miralem  wrote

1. How to setup the right ballance between Brightness and Contrast on OSD? The contrast is not mentioned in the calibrating process (not in spyder and not in x-rite software).

2. RGB sliders

As the slyders are going from 0-255, i was always thinking off Bytes. 8 bit per channel.

So i thought, lowering RGB for example from 255/255/255 to 128/128/128 would reduce the Gammut?

3.Softproof

Do i have to set softproof to sRGB, when im working on RAWs, that im going to convert to sRGB JPGs?

Or:

are the sliders only relatives to each other, without effecting the Gammut wideness?

In this case, 128/128/128 would be the same as 255/255/255 or 200/200/200.

But im still happy with the results, Lightroom shows me!!!

THANKS!

1. If you are using the X-rite software, that's an attribute of setting contrast ratio. See:

X-Rite i1Display Pro Advanced Features | Contrast Ratio with Coloratti Andrew Rodney - X-Rite Photo ...

So brightness is backlight intensity, a different kind of setting. Trial and error to get WYSIWYG.

2. This affects White Balance. The idea is once you find a WB that works, you adjust again to a desired result (a match).

3. No! You're soft proofing to the display profile in the working space being edited then ideally, soft proofing for an output to print. Make the 'master' raw look as good as possible and don't worry about sRGB per se.

As for calibrating for a print match:

Why are my prints too dark?

A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013

In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?

Display calibration and WYSIWYG

Proper print viewing conditions

Trouble shooting to get a match

Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4

Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4

[miralem]

I didnt print yet, but i think everything is working well now. The first time i see a huge difference between a jpg opened in windows photo (no CM) and xnview (yes CM).

I think seeing this big difference is right, cause the non CM Apps are completly over saturated.

I simply like what i see!