Unbearable difference between library and develop

[#1]

Hello everybody.

I've been having this problem that has been killing my images, having me working on images much different from the ones i shot.

I know that this is a common question, but i tried most of the stuff recommended in other threads and it didn't change.

I tried to change the import preferences, setting the GPU on off, changing the monitor profile to RGB...

My images are usually much darker in the develop module, at least 1 full point of exposure darker than in the library.

 The only thing left would be to calibrate my monitor, which should already be good.

Do you think that it'll solve my problem? Do you have any recommendation?

{Moved from Lightroom Cloud to Lightroom Classic Forum by Moderator}

[#2]

Calibrating the monitor is always a good thing. Even doing it by eye-balling it for brightness and contrast will greatly help since most monitors are by default set WAY too high.

Otherwise, we need some screen shots so that we can see what you are seeing.

[#3]

 setting the GPU on off, changing the monitor profile to RGB...

When Library and Develop don't match, it's almost always caused by a defective monitor profile, or by a bug in the GPU driver. 

So did you set the monitor profile to sRGB?

Did you restart Lightroom after changing the monitor profile?

Are you on Mac or Windows?

[#4]

I did change the monitor profile to sRGB and restarted lightroom, but nothing changed. 

I'm on windows.

One thing that i'm thinking of, is that the app that i'm using could be a reason. When i use that to look at RAW files (ORF in my case) it changes the picture, in a very similar way of the one Lightroom does, even though it's not the same.

I don't think it's this the problem, but it was worth mentioning.

[#5]

"the app that i'm using could be a reason. When i use that to look at RAW files (ORF in my case) it changes the picture, in a very similar way of the one Lightroom does, even though it's not the same."

I don't really understand what you mean by this - but be aware that any other photo viewers you might use, like e.g. Windows "Photos", don't show you the raw data. It shows you the jpeg preview that the camera generated and embedded in the file. So that's a very different thing.

If that's what you mean, it sounds like maybe Lightroom preview generation is stalled for some reason, and it keeps showing you the embedded jpeg.

Oh, and one more thing, just to get it out of the way: you must compare at 1:1, especially if it's a noisy image, "noise" in this case including starry night skies and so on. Different resampling algorithms can easily make them seem different.

[#6]

Changing the monitor profile to sRGB is not the same as calibrating your monitor.

But, as others have said, @Luca5CF2 , we need screen captures. Click on the "Insert Photos" icon to include your screen captures in your reply, and do not create attachments.

[#7]

I think that's what i mean. 

The app shortly shows me the image as i shot it, and then applies some changes, but it is very different from the jpeg as well.

I don't think i know what you mean by "Lightroom preview generation stalled", are you suggesting that it could be a bug, or maybe some setting i changed?

I had tried the 1:1 comparison, no changes.

[#8]

This is one of the examples.

You can see that i can't work with that.

What do you think? Could be the monitor?

Oh, i thought it was obvious, but it only does it to RAW files.

[#9]

Wow, that's a lot. Bad monitor profile and/or buggy video driver is my first explanation, but assuming that can be ruled out (you really are using sRGB as monitor profile and have restarted Lightroom after the switch) - then the only thing I can think of is that Library hangs and doesn't generate previews, so it keeps showing the camera jpeg - and you have the camera set to some setting that lightens up shadows. Something like that is in every camera nowadays, under different names.

[#10]

I understand. 

I don't know what to do. So you think that the calibration of the monitor isn't the problem?

I'll try resetting the settings of  Lightroom and of the monitor's profile (and re-changing to sRGB) to make sure.

My camers does have some installed profiles, and i always had one of them on (cause i couldn't set it off), but i don't think that could make that much of a difference.

[#11]

Assuming the problem is that the Library preview is not being generated by Lightroom Classic - that this is an extracted JPG which you are seeing, that was generated by the camera - one fairly common explanation for such a big difference is, that a mode was active in the camera called something like "Active D-Lighting" or "Highlight Protection" or some such name.

A mode like this involves a secretly reduced exposure - meaning, reduced tonal information - followed by some proprietary corrective processing in the camera (similar to using a higher ISO setting) which "conceals" that reduced exposure from the user. A JPG image, or the in-camera preview that is embedded in the Raw, includes this corrective processing. But Lightroom itself sees only the reality of the Raw data: a "dark" exposure. Darker than the photographer probably intended; darker than the in-camera review, or the histogram, showed.

It's much better to turn such a mode off in the camera, if you are primarily shooting for Raw processing. I'd argue, it's better to turn it off for JPG shooting also. I prefer the camera to always "tell the truth"!

[#12]

Setting sRGB as monitor profile should take that out of the equation. The idea is to replace the current profile with a known good profile. It won't be entirely accurate, but that's not the point; it's for diagnostic purposes. It shouldn't exhibit any symptoms like this. It's standard profile troubleshooting procedure.

It's important to relaunch Lightroom after this. The profile is loaded at application startup.

The GPU (next suspect) is disabled in Lightroom preferences. Relaunch here too:

That's purely diagnostic too BTW, it indicates a buggy video driver.

These are the usual suspects. If both can be ruled out, something funny is going on, and I'm sorry to say I draw a blank here (other than missing preview generation). Hopefully someone will have a bright idea.

[#13]

I understand, the explanation makes perfect sense as well, but i do not find such mode in my camera.

The only thing i can compare to that is the profile that the camera lets me choose, but even then, those wouldn't change that much.

[#14]

I did both of those, nothing changed it seems.

Thank you for your help, i appreciate it

[#15]

What camera?

[#16]

Olympus EM10 Mark III

[#17]

It seems your camera does have this feature. See page 84 of https://www.olympusamerica.com/files/oima_cckb/E-M10Mk3_ENU.pdf

[#18]

You are right.

I didn't think about that since i had never used it.

i resetted the settings of the camera to be sure, but it was always default.

[#19]

Please post your System Information as Lightroom Classic (LrC) reports it. In LrC click on Help, then System Info, then Copy. Paste that information into a reply. Please present all information from first line down to and including Plug-in Info. Info after Plug-in info can be cut as that is just so much dead space to us non-Techs.

[#20]

Here it  is.

Lightroom Classic version: 10.0 [ 202010011851-ef6045e0 ]
License: Creative Cloud
Language setting: en
Operating system: Windows 10 - Home Premium Edition
Version: 10.0.18363
Application architecture: x64
System architecture: x64
Logical processor count: 12
Processor speed: 2,5 GHz
SqLite Version: 3.30.1
Built-in memory: 16304,2 MB
Real memory available to Lightroom: 16304,2 MB
Real memory used by Lightroom: 1304,7 MB (8,0%)
Virtual memory used by Lightroom: 4080,8 MB
GDI objects count: 690
USER objects count: 2519
Process handles count: 1885
Memory cache size: 4,0MB
Internal Camera Raw version: 13.0 [ 610 ]
Maximum thread count used by Camera Raw: 5
Camera Raw SIMD optimization: SSE2,AVX,AVX2
Camera Raw virtual memory: 425MB / 8152MB (5%)
Camera Raw real memory: 522MB / 16304MB (3%)
System DPI setting: 120 DPI
Desktop composition enabled: Yes
Displays: 1) 1920x1080
Input types: Multitouch: No, Integrated touch: No, Integrated pen: No, External touch: No, External pen: No, Keyboard: No

Graphics Processor Info:
DirectX: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (26.21.14.4223)

Application folder: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Lightroom Classic
Library Path: C:\Users\lucaa\OneDrive\Pictures\Lightroom\Lightroom Catalog-v10-2.lrcat
Settings Folder: C:\Users\lucaa\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom

Installed Plugins:
1) AdobeStock
2) Facebook
3) Flickr
4) Nikon Tether Plugin

[#21]

Graphics Processor Info:
DirectX: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (26.21.14.4223)

So GPU driver v442.23. Per NVIDIA web page, current GeForce Game Ready is v456.71, same for Studio version.

You should have a NVIDIA utility called GeForce Experience to update that.

Be aware, that at least one member has an issue with LrC v10, on Windows 10 PC with RTX 2080, and the latest GPU driver:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/gpu-rendering-stops-processing/m-p/11527507?page=1

And one with RTX 2070:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/lightroom-classic-v-10-0-friert-bei-verlaufsfilter-...

[#22]

Oh wow, i didn't know that.

I am currently updating it, the chances of having issues later is not that relevant right now, since as the situations is now, i wouldn't be able to work either.

Thanks a lot.

[#23]

Well, i updated it, restarted Lightroom,, and nothing changed.

Should i do something else?

[#24]

There is a recent and seemingly similar case here:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/library-module-and-navigator-image-look-different-t... 

I'm beginning to wonder if there may possibly be a bug here somewhere.

[#25]

I see.

My problem has been there since i got this laptop actually, so at least four months.

[#26]

OK. This is so far a mystery.

I had to double check on my own Windows 10 system, just to make sure I hadn't missed anything, but they are absolutely dead identical here.

[#27 · Accepted solution]

Guys, in the OP's Library module screenshot the following text appears anteprima incoporata. Translated from Italian to English it means embedded preview. So the OP is using Embedded & Sidecar preview setting in the Import module. EDIT Zooming to 1:1 view in the Library module or Making an adjustment in the Develop module should replace the embedded preview with one generated by LrC using the raw image file. If not in the Library module go Library> Previews and select 'Build Standard-Sized Previews' or 'Build 1:1 Previews.'

[#28]

Good catch!

[#29]

I've been using that kind of preview for the last few days, since using 1:1 or standard previews would only let me see the image as I shot it in the library one time, meaning that if I went to develop (where the image appeared differently) and came back to Library, the image would change.

Now, I don't know if there's some information I'm not getting 100% right, cause I tried many things and got them mixed up in my brain.

Tomorrow, as soon as I can, I'll try to set the previews at 1:1 again and see what I get.

Thank you

[#30]

I had a feeling Todd would be the one to untangle this 🙂

A relief. I was afraid we had a bug on our hands.

[#31]

I'm afraid that didn't solve it the way i mean.

Now, both in the library and develop module, the image is the darker one, which is not the one i shot.

When i used Embedded previews at least the real image showed in the library, but now it's the darker one in both

[#32]

The embedded preview is not "the real image".

It just reflects the camera settings, which in this case include a setting that brightens the shadows.

Lightroom doesn't understand these settings, and ignores them. Just edit the image to your liking, and ignore the embedded preview.

If you set all camera settings to zero/neutral, the embedded preview will be closer to what you see in Lightroom.

The real image is the raw file, and if you could see it, it would be a dark, flat, grayscale image.

It has to be rendered in a raw converter to become a useful image, and Lightroom provides you with a starting point for further editing. There is no "correct" rendering of a raw file, different raw converters will render a raw file differently.

[#33]

What can I say. Per is absolutely right.

There is no such thing as the "real image" when shooting raw. The raw image itself is useless until processed, and it's all down to how different processors (yourself included!) interpret the sensor data.

I know, I'm just repeating what Per said. But this is important to fully understand.

[#34]

Damn, how have i never realised this.

Now i've got a doubt. Since what i see in Lightroom isn't what i see when i shoot in the camera, but is instead much darker, should i change something? i can't continue shooting rightly exposed in camera and having under-exposed pictures in Lightroom.

Thank you for your help!

[#35]

Read this, in particular reply #4:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/shot-at-too-high-shutter-speed-no-problem/td-p/1153... 

That's the explanation. You can compensate a little by giving a bit more exposure than you normally would (that's what I do), but of course you have to be careful. If you clip the highlights they're gone.

[#36]

Got it. 

I've been giving more exposure to the images in Lightroom, cause i didn't want to overexpose while shooting, but i guess i'll have to try.

Great, thank you everybody! 

[#37]

Not wanting to overexpose when shooting, is a good aim! Not wanting to underexpose is also a good aim, but secondary to avoiding overexposure.

However, "overexposure" has two possible meanings:

• aesthetic - looks light, straight out of the box
• technical - no matter how you process it, you can never get desired results in highlight areas that you care about (say: clouds in the sky, or a white wedding dress) - because those areas of the sensor have been overwhelmed with too much light.

And "underexposure" has two possible meanings:

• aesthetic - looks dark, straight out of the box. 
• technical - the overall picture has received less light information than would have been ideal in terms of making full use of the capability of the sensor: so the tone / colour gradations above the noise floor, are somewhat impoverished.

An analogy of exposing with Raw processing in mind, rather than towards a camera JPG:

Potters do not care about the starting shape of their lump of clay. It simply doesn't help them if that happens to look bowl shaped already, nor hinder them if it doesn't. Their next action is going to be to knead it regardless - throw it on the wheel - and then achieve the shape of bowl they want.

What they want in this lump of clay, is to be good material to work with: (the right amount, the right mixture, etc)

"Get it right in the camera" for a JPG shooter means: make the best bowl that you can.

And for a Raw shooter: make sure you hand to the potter, the most bowl-worthy lump of clay that you can. Knowing that it will be kneaded as their first action (that prior in-camera image settings, are going to be then disregarded as irrelevant).

[#38]

That's right, absolutely agree with that. Lump of clay is an excellent analogy.

Personally, I really couldn't care less how it looks on the camera LCD. All I care about is what I have to work with in Lightroom. No clipped highlights, but also enough exposure to minimize noise and have enough data in the shadows.

If I need a degree of "accuracy" I put a colorchecker in a reference frame, and use that as a guide in the Lr processing. Although it should be noted that absolute colorimetric accuracy is an illusion and a red herring. You'll never get there, and there's no point trying. What you want is equivalent and credible color.

[#39]

That's  a great analogy.

I know it doesn't seem like it, i was missing critical information, but i knew what i was doing, i was shooting in a way that would've helped me in Lightroom, if only my information was correct. 

Now i know it wasn't.

Thank you