P: Cannot select Rhodamine Red Pantone Solid V4 library, swaps to Rubine Red

[David Cardillo, PRH]

I want to say up front that this issue isn't (necessarily) Adobe's fault, as it's clearly an issue with Pantone's ACB color book datbase file.

This is specific to the Pantone Solid Coated & Uncoated V4 ACB color book files. They were exported with the (no longer available) Pantone Color Manager app.

In any file in Photoshop, in the Channels panel, choose "New Spot Color." From Color Libraries, choose the Pantone Solid Coated (or Uncoated) V4 color book. Type in "Rhodamine" to select Rhodamine Red. Before you even click "OK," take a look at the Channels panel — it will list Rubine Red. You literally cannot select it.

The Pantone libraries (formerly) distributed by Adobe (the Pantone+ series and the older, lowercase versions) do not have this issue.

I'm posting this here because this issue would not exist if Photoshop was not dependent upon maintaining a live reference to an installed ACB color database file for spot channels chosen from that book.

InDesign and Illustrator do not have this issue, as they do not have the same issues with referencing colors from a live color book file.

Removing the requirment of Photoshop to have an installed color book reference to use a file with a channel from that specific book would solve so many other issues. Up to and including their decision to no longer distribute the libraries, where anyone who opens an older file created when the books were installed is going to get a "book not installed error." [https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/pantone-colors-converted-to-black-err...

I just want to add that we've been using the V4 ACB files for years (2019) and this is the first time we're seeing this issue.

Currently our solution is to reference the older Pantone books.

[David Cardillo, PRH]

demonstration, for reference: https://www.screencast.com/t/VADWW2likMb

(video too large to upload here)

[TPinkerton]

Unfortunately, the root of this problem sounds like an issue that we've been aware of for a long time, but we don't have any control over it. The Pantone Color Manager software has a flaw that results in exporting incorrectly formatted Color Book files. Each color in the book needs a unique key identifier to differentiate it from the others, but Pantone's software sometimes exports multiple colors with the same key. This can result in confusion over selected colors.

The Color Books that shipped with Photoshop did not have this flaw. It only affects books exported by the Pantone Color Manager.

The best we can do is contact Pantone about the problem. However, if they're not updating Pantone Color Manager anymore, the longer term solution may be to use their new Pantone Connect service and extension.

[David Cardillo, PRH]

the colors in the color book files up through V3 were indexed by a number in the table (by book). What changed in the V4 books was they tried to index the colors by name, not their position in the table.

Indexed by number, you could ensure they were all unique. It made changes more cumbersome, as new colors were added often in the middle of the sequence, changing the number references for each book. (though the references were unique to the book in the first place.)

In V4 it wasn't that they referenced them all by name — where one might assume the names would be unique — but that the names were only the last 6 characters of the color name.

"Rhodamine Red" and "Rubine Red" end with the same characters.

That's just sloppy database design, as the first order of business is ensuring all of your table entries are unique. Like, that's something you can actually test for. There wasn't even a basic QC for the new table.

And yes, I don't see Pantone running to correct this issue. Much like they're not running to create a version of their Pantone Connect that runs on an M1 Mac (natively) or a product that can actually create spot channels. (this is going to be even more fun when the overdue next Pantone update comes out with even more new colors.)

What I feel is important for Adobe to address is how Photoshop references spot channels that were created from ACB files.

[TPinkerton]

Your request about improving the way we internally reference these colors is well taken. It will become even more important as we transition to new, external systems for selecting these colors. I'll look into it and see if we can address it. You are quite correct that the strict binding we currently have to our ACB files is too restrictive. We need a better, more generalized system.

[ZBalling]

That screencast does not happen anymore in Photoshop 2023.

[ZBalling]

Photoshop 2023

[David Cardillo, PRH]

@ZBalling thanks for confirming that — that's good to know

did you confirm that it works correctly the other way, too? that if you type in "Rubine" you do in fact get Rubine, and it doesn't switch to Rhodamine? (I'm wondering if it's just switching reading the database from top to bottom, or bottom to top and now the other one is first.)

[ZBalling]

It is also fixed in latest 23.5.2 update (BTW, does it mean that never before Rhodamine Red was used, no wonder Pantone withdrew from Adobe).

[ZBalling]

Yes, Rubine Red also works. Can you confirm that on your side with printers and stuff?

[David Cardillo, PRH]

@ZBalling I've tried this again with versions 23.5.2 and higher (up to and including 24.1.1) and the issue still persists.

Can you confirm it's still working properly for you? If so, can you provide system info?

[ZBalling]

Well, what is your screenshot that the issue still persists?

[David Cardillo, PRH]

@ZBalling here is a video: https://www.screencast.com/t/FT6n8W2h5Na (let me know if you cannot view this)

This was taken on an Intel MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2018) running macOS Monterey, 12.6.1 (21G217) with Photoshop version 24.1.0.

I've been able to replicate this on an M1 MacBookPro (16-inch, 2021) running macOS Monterey, 12.6 (21G115) with the same version, as well as on a Mac Monterey VM running on Parallels with versions 23.2, 23.5.2, 23.5.4, and 24.1.1, and Windows 10 also running on Parallels with 23.5.4.

Do you need me to post screen shots from all of those systems as well? or can you take my word for it that the issue persists for me?

I'm curious to know your system configuration and version numbers that you say you're not experiencing it, so I can try to replicate the conditions.

[ZBalling]

Does not happen on windows 11 22H2, Pantone Purple C does not become Medium Purple either.

I am using 24.1.0.