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Lokinator14777
Participating Frequently
September 5, 2017
Answered

Black only Shadows in a RGB document

  • September 5, 2017
  • 3 replies
  • 3672 views

Hi Everyone

I noticed that I can place CMYK Smart objects within RGB documents and it retains the CMYK values ( when you open the smart object. My current WF is to create a CMYK file with Black only shadow for printing and a RGB file for everything else. I started thinking if I can create the shadow as a SMART object and place it into a RGB file it will retain its CMYK properties I can now use one file instead of 2 (and RGB files look better on our DAM). My issue comes in when I create a PDF from indesign ( Using the RGB file with CMYK smart Objects) it changes the black only shadow into 4 color. If I can get this to work it would save me a ton of time, server space etc. I have tried saving with and without profile, changing PDF profiles etc….does anyone know if it is possible….even if it requires a script I would be interested. Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!

Thank you in advance for your time

Bob

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer rob day

So are you saying it will work? And the rendering intent is screwing with it? You are saying it shows the separations as K only which is what I want. And even rasterizing the PDF will show a K only shadow.

This Is atleast the right idea, 

ONE IMPORTANT NOTE: You can take the saved RGB file and convert it back to CMYK, normally this would make the black turn 4 color, it does not it retains the org K only shadow through the conversion. So even a Save as RGB it retains the org smart object CMYK values. SO.... Theoretical or not YOU CAN Have a CMYK In a RGB document that does not change when changing color modes....enclosed is a screen grab and link below of the smart object opened from within the RGB file notice the header says CMYK and it reads CMYK values when you read actual color.  I wouldnt have believed you if you told me BUT I REALLY WANT TO USE IT.

I also know Indesign will only change the RGB object to CMYK but if it had the info stored ( via smart object) as we know the file does could use it

I will get infront of Indesign tomorrow and try it....I will update with results.

Excuse me I haven't looped back to test this today (12 hours is enough work for one day) but I will tomorrow.  link to the RGB PSD file that shows the CMYK Smart object in a RGB Document....."

DOGS AND CATS LIVING TOGETHER - MASS HYSTERIA!!"

- Bill Murray

Test_KShadow.psd - Google Drive


So are you saying it will work? And the rendering intent is screwing with it? You are saying it shows the separations as K only which is what I want. And even rasterizing the PDF will show a K only shadow.

This Is atleast the right idea, 

Only if your Test_KShadow document in also CMYK.

If you convert that document without merging or rasterizing the smart object, the smart object itself doesn't change, but it will change when you output or export the document holding the smart object. Check the Info>Actual Color for the Test_KShadow document and you will see that it is RGB.

So your document saved as PDF/X-4 in Acrobat confirms that the shadow is in fact RGB which would have different CMYK values depending on the final print CMYK destination:

If you convert the holding document to CMYK you can have the K-only values in the smart object, but now there are no RGB objects. Saved as default PDF/X-4:

Note that Acrobat reports the image as ICCBasedCMYK so it has a profile. If the PDF is output to some other CMYK destination, the K-only shadow will get converted to 4-color. If you save as PDF/X1-a the image in the PDF will be DeviceCMYK and the K values should output unchanged even when there's a different destination.

3 replies

mastergblog
mastergblog
Participant
September 8, 2017

Wow... this is so an amazing post with professional replies

Thanks Bosses

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Lokinator14777Author
Participating Frequently
September 6, 2017

Let me get infront of my computer in the morning - and I'll post the screen grabs. Believe me I thought the same thing and so did my 5 retouchers. We all tried it and all got the same results. Where I am stuck - is the Indesign is obviously seeing it the RGB file as RGB despite it having a CMYK embedded via smart object. The PDF/x-4 sounds like the way to go...I was praying it would see through the "wrapper" and convert the RGB to CMYK and leave anything that was CMYK (Smart object) alone but havent tried it yet. I will let you know and post screens

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
September 6, 2017

You can see the conversion into the document color mode more clearly if you put an RGB smart object into a CMYK doc. Here the green smart object is obviously an out-of-gamut RGB color which is being converted. The smart object opened in AI on the right:

Exported to PDF/X-4 no conversion, the green exports in the CMYK space:

InDesign can do what you want:

Exported as PDF/X-4 the objects remain unchanged. You can see the black is unchanged DeviceCMYK at 0|0|0|60 and the green is sRGB

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Lokinator14777Author
Participating Frequently
September 8, 2017

I just remembered there's another option that will work if you have control of the final CMYK conversions. When you make the conversion from RGB to CMYK with a layered smart object document, you are given the choice whether to merge and/or rasterize the layers. That choice will produce different CMYK results. If you choose not to merge or rasterize the smart objects the black only numbers will be preserved. After the conversion you would have the option to flatten the CMYK file and still keep k-only shadows.

So this out-of-gamut RGB file converted without merging will preserve the smart object's k-only values even though the Info panel is showing 4-color. You could have an RGB master and send a customized conversion to the press.

The conversion to CMYK without merging keeps the k-only shadows.


NO kidding??? This will work?? That would be spectacular!! I cant wait to try this....I knew someone smarter than me could figure it out!! So is there a downside to doing it this way??

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
September 5, 2017

I noticed that I can place CMYK Smart objects within RGB documents and it retains the CMYK values ( when you open the smart object

I don't think it is possible. The smart objects can be different modes, but for output there can only be one mode and assigned color profile. Even saving as PDF/X-4 with no conversion results in all the objects converted into the file's color mode.

You can do it with InDesign. If you layer different mode Photoshop files and export as PDF/X-4, no conversion, the resulting PDF will maintain the different color modes. Or, you can place an RGB image and give it a CMYK black only drop shadow and export with no conversion.

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Lokinator14777Author
Participating Frequently
September 5, 2017

I was shocked when I did it, let me tell you WHY I think its somehow retaining the CMYK color info. I do the CMYK smart object, save it as a RGB PSD file, reopen the file and tell the eyedropper to show me "actual" color, over the shadow it shows CMYK #'s over the object it shows RGB. Same Document....different color readings according to the eyedropper. Program anomaly? I dont know and would be happy to share the file if anyone's interested. Another weird thing we noticed ( Different File) in Bridge we had a file that showed a CMYK color space with a RGB profile...Leading me to believe somehow it might be retaining something  somewhere. If you could do it it would be a huge break through for asset management/designers everywhere.

Stephen Marsh
Community Expert
Stephen MarshCommunity Expert
Community Expert
September 6, 2017

My tests show otherwise, the result is a CMYK black from the K only smart object in the RGB PSD.

This is as expected and I can’t duplicate your results.

Sorry to rain on the parade!

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