Color calibration is not working in PhotoshopCC 2015.1.2

[magdalenap12078806]

After calibrating monitor with X-rite i1Profiler on multiple monitors. On one of them Dell 2408WFP, the photoshop is showing different colors than other previewers. (Chrome on right) Photoshop working space set to sRGB.

http://imgur.com/nvizXF6

But opening Save for Web the preview is saturated again.

http://imgur.com/hKEL5Hy

Can't figure it out how to fix it? I work on PC with windows, Nvidia graphic card.

[davescm · Accepted solution]

Hi

When you calibrated your monitor you will actually have done two things. One - adjusted your monitor and created a calibration file to bring it as close as possible to a standard. Two -created a profile which is used by colour managed applications to adjust the displayed colours and make them as accurate as possible.

If you ensure you Photos are saved with an ICC profile, colour managed applications will display the image correctly.

Photoshop uses colour management - most broswers do not. They simply ignore the profile (Firefox can be set up to use profiles). Therefore comparing Photoshop to a non colour managed browser/viewer will show a difference no matter how good your calibration and profiling. The viewers without colour management are displaying incorrectly.

On older monitors with limited colours - an image in the the sRGB space did not look that different (managed or not)  but on newer wide gamut monitors - correct colour management is absolutely essential .

Dave

[richardj21724418]

I've found dealing with colour profiles on a PC is tough enough on single monitor systems but even worse with multiple monitors.

As you say, you need to ensure Windows is loading the correct profile associated with each display.  On Windows 7 I found that the monitor profiles don't get loaded on start up by default and you have to delve into the Advanced Color management settings to enable this (and can only do so in Administrator mode).

The trouble is, the Windows desktop and a lot of applications don't support monitor profiles or, if they do, they don't support them across multiple monitors.  For instance, Firefox can be set up to use monitor profiles, but it only picks up the profile for the 'main display' and applies that across all displays.  Fortunately Photoshop seems to work correctly across multiple monitors.  However, Adobe Camera Raw suffers from the same problem as Firefox, meaning you have to perform Raw edits on your main display, or otherwise set the main display to the profile of the monitor you are editing on and sacrifice colour accuracy on your main display.

I use a handy little utility called DisplayProfile if I want to switch monitor profiles (e.g. if I switch the monitor to AdobeRGB or sRGB mode).  It's quicker than delving into the Windows settings.

[D Fosse]

richardj21724418 wrote:

As you say, you need to ensure Windows is loading the correct profile associated with each display.

This should normally work out of the box with no user intervention. The calibration software should set up the appropriate profile as system default for each display.

If it isn't working you probably have some other issue. Going into the Advanced tab in Windows Color Management is something you should never do or need.

However - it's true that ACR has had a problem here (which only some users report). But my impression is that this happens mostly in Mac OS.

The OP's question was correctly answered by Dave.

[davescm]

Hi Dag

On Windows 7 I never did anything special. However when I first switched to Windows 10 I did have to go into advanced and check the "Use Windows display calibration" box in order to get the LUT part of the profiles for each monitor to load into the AMD card. Without that, the profiles were being used but the LUTs were not.

Whether that was just early Windows 10 or whether it is still an issue I don't know - it is still checked and the LUTs load up correctly, so I've not try to alter or fix what isn't broken.

N.B. I create my profiles with Argyll so there is no software set up in the background doing any kind of set up - so my case may be unusual.

Dave

[D Fosse]

davescm wrote:

when I first switched to Windows 10 I did have to go into advanced and check the "Use Windows display calibration" box in order to get the LUT part of the profiles for each monitor to load

Huh. That's strange. On my Win 7 systems that option is grayed out and unavailable - as it should be, because I'm not using Windows calibration. However, I don't have any video LUTs at all (it's in the monitor's internal LUT).

It must be because Argyll doesn't have a LUT loader, while most other calibrators do (that's the one sitting in the Startup folder). Are you using the Dispcal GUI, or are you running it straight from command lines?

[davescm]

It must be because Argyll doesn't have a LUT loader, while most other calibrators do (that's the one sitting in the Startup folder). Are you using the Dispcal GUI, or are you running it straight from command lines?

I run Argyll straight from command lines. There is a command line loader but I found that by enabling Windows display calibration I could get windows to load the same LUTs directly.

It was originally greyed out but by going into "Change System Defaults" I could enable it so it is still grayed but always checked.

OP - Apologies for the diversion - you do not need to do any of this

Dave

[richardj21724418]

D Fosse wrote:

On my Win 7 systems that option is grayed out and unavailable - as it should be, because I'm not using Windows calibration. However, I don't have any video LUTs at all (it's in the monitor's internal LUT).

One of my monitors also has internal calibration but the others in the system do not. As far as I can tell, the 'Use Windows display calibration' option is global, across all monitors.  So I leave it enabled.  It's not a problem, because the profile for the monitor with the internal LUT includes a flat GPU LUT.

Also apologies to the OP if this has wandered too far off track.

[richardj21724418]

I notice the ACR issue here, on a PC. It only uses the profile for the 'main display'. It's not a problem if your monitors are very different (e.g. wide gamut mixed with sRGB), because it's so obviously wrong if you try and edit with the wrong profile. Just need to be careful if you're using similar monitors, where the profiles are only slightly different.

[magdalenap12078806]

"Photoshop uses colour management - most browsers do not. They simply ignore the profile (Firefox can be set up to use profiles). "

Is that still the case? I read is so many places that the browsers do support color profiling now. What does not support ICC 100% is image preview in Windows7 and if I open the picture in image preview the colors look yet again totally different.

BTW, if I use navigation windows to have a preview of a full picture on another screen, what's the best ICC to work with?

How does working on a picture in main monitor profile affect previewing the picture on another monitor in PS Navigation window? That's my main problem. That the colors in PS Navigation window looks different on my Dell than on main screen, while the same picture in any other preview on dell looks normal.

[davescm]

If your calibration and profiles are built and loaded correctly - and your video card supports the loading of multiple LUTs (look up tables) from the profiles (one for each monitor) then :

In Photoshop, for display it does matter which of the working color spaces you use* . sRGB, Adobe RGB, Pro Photo etc will all be converted by Photoshop on the fly to display correctly (within the limits of the monitor)  on each monitor.  I often drag windows across from one monitor to another and also have multiple windows with the same document (one zoomed for example). There is no change in colour. I have three calibrated and profiled monitors here and they all look identical.

The only difference you may see between monitors is in the colours displayed if the monitor gamuts (range of colours)  are significantly different For example, if one of the monitors is wide gamut, capable of displaying most of ARGB and another narrow gamut, capable of displaying only sRGB colours. In that case you may see more extended colours - particularly in some greens on one monitor.

*There are other reasons you make a particular colour space but not because one displays correctly and other will not.  

Outside of Photoshop in none colour managed apps all bets are off. The safest colour space for documents going into those apps will be sRGB - but that still only applies when those apps display on a narrow gamut monitors.

Dave

[Per Berntsen]

On Windows, any recent version of Chrome, Firefox or Opera will be color managed, and will display colors correctly, provided that the profile is embedded. Firefox can in addition be set up to assign sRGB to untagged images. I don't use Firefox much, but it seems that it has the same color management as the other browsers out of the box.

As for Mac, I'm pretty sure that Safari is color managed, don't know about the other browsers.

magdalenap12078806 wrote:

BTW, if I use navigation windows to have a preview of a full picture on another screen, what's the best ICC to work with?

I use two monitors myself, but haven't bothered to calibrate the old Dell I use for a second monitor, I just used the on-screen controls to make it look reasonable.

I believe Windows can handle separate monitor profiles for two monitors, but I have no experience with it.

Maybe somebody else has some advice to offer.

[davescm]

I just tried Chrome ( I don't normally use it) and it did indeed display correctly - seems the world is catching up !

Dave

[Per Berntsen]

You can take a look at my Test page for color profiles in various browsers.

In a color managed browser, the three first images should display identically.

The fourth (untagged) image will only look like the others with Firefox's color management mode set to 1.

[Per Berntsen]

Forgot to mention that Internet Explorer and the Edge browser are not color managed, and will not display correct colors. This will especially be a problem on wide gamut monitors, where images will display over saturated.

[davescm]

You can test the browser with this :

Colour Management in your web browser - Test Images

Dave

[davescm]

Per Berntsen wrote:

Forgot to mention that Internet Explorer and the Edge browser are not color managed, and will not display correct colors. This will especially be a problem on wide gamut monitors, where images will display over saturated.

It seems they do a half baked job . Read the profile but then assume that the monitor is sRGB

Dave

[Per Berntsen]

Yes I know. They claim to be color managed, and got it all wrong. Apparently, they don't use the monitor profile.

I'm sure Dag can tell us the whole story

[richardj21724418]

Per Berntsen wrote:

Yes I know. They claim to be color managed, and got it all wrong. Apparently, they don't use the monitor profile.

I'm sure Dag can tell us the whole story

I believe Internet Explorer supports source profiles (in other words, it understands if a JPG has an attached Adobe RGB profile, rather than sRGB), but it ignores monitor profiles.

[D Fosse]

Actually it can't "understand" source profiles, but "ignore" monitor profiles.

There's always two profiles (or none). Each profile means nothing in itself - it's the conversion from one into the other that constitutes color management. IOW not a thing, but a relationship - like the Zen koan about one hand clapping.

So what happens with IE is that it throws out the real display profile, and replaces it with sRGB. Which is, of course, wrong in every possible way, in every possible situation.

It's always struck me as ironic. They go to great lengths to get it right, and then they botch it with one stupid final decision. Oh well.

[richardj21724418]

D Fosse wrote:

So what happens with IE is that it throws out the real display profile, and replaces it with sRGB. Which is, of course, wrong in every possible way, in every possible situation.

Yes, but it doesn't throw out the source profile.  The problem is, it always manages the source profile to sRGB, regardless of any monitor profile.  If it didn't, an image with an Adobe RGB profile would look less saturated than the equivalent image with an sRGB profile, which it doesn't.  In other words, it understands that the image has a profile.  If it didn't manage the source image profile, these two images would look different.  Download them into Photoshop if you want to see the profiles.

http://typo.www.idnet.com/images/test_aRGB.jpg

http://typo.www.idnet.com/images/test_sRGB.jpg

D Fosse wrote:

It's always struck me as ironic. They go to great lengths to get it right, and then they botch it with one stupid final decision. Oh well.

Absolutely.  In never ceases to amaze me how inept Microsoft can be sometimes!

[D Fosse]

richardj21724418 wrote:

Yes, but it doesn't throw out the source profile. The problem is, it always manages the source profile to sRGB, regardless of any monitor profile.

I just have to correct this. This isn't how it works.

The source profile is converted to the monitor profile, which in this case is sRGB. It is not converted to sRGB and the monitor profile then discarded.

Nitpicking, you might say, but it's a very important distinction, in order to undertand how color management works.

There's always a source profile and a destination profile. In the display color management chain, the destination profile is always the monitor profile. It's a direct conversion from source to monitor, no intermediate steps.

That's why IE is so close to getting it right. It's all operational - but then it's directed to the wrong monitor profile.

[richardj21724418]

D Fosse wrote:

richardj21724418 wrote:

Yes, but it doesn't throw out the source profile. The problem is, it always manages the source profile to sRGB, regardless of any monitor profile.

I just have to correct this. This isn't how it works.

The source profile is converted to the monitor profile, which in this case is sRGB. It is not converted to sRGB and the monitor profile then discarded.

Nitpicking, you might say, but it's a very important distinction, in order to undertand how color management works.

There's always a source profile and a destination profile. In the display color management chain, the destination profile is always the monitor profile. It's a direct conversion from source to monitor, no intermediate steps.

That's why IE is so close to getting it right. It's all operational - but then it's directed to the wrong monitor profile.

I think that is a bit pedantic but I appreciate the point you are making.  You're saying IE always converts directly from the source profile to the monitor profile, it's just there's a little bug and it always uses the sRGB monitor profile instead of the correct monitor profile?  If so, do you know what sRGB profile file it uses? If it works the way you say, it seems to me it might be possible to replace that file with a different profile?

I actually thought profile conversion took place through an intermediate Profile Connection Space, but that's me being pedantic as the end result is much the same. Correct me on that if I'm wrong. Still lots to learn.

[D Fosse]

I think people have tried to hack IE this way, but don't know if anyone succeeded. It's not really worth the trouble as long as there are browsers that do it right.

You're right about the profile connection space, which is the heart and soul of color management. But this is one level down in the functional hierarchy. This is the actual math by which profiles are converted. The PCS, usually Lab or CIE XYZ, acts as the essential fixed reference, the definition for a given set of numbers in a given color space. This way, the numbers are defined as specific colors.

So the document numbers are first converted to Lab or CIE XYZ, by predefined tables, and next converted to the destination space, again by predefined tables.

You could, in theory, do it directly, but the PCS system is vastly more flexible and efficient.

[richardj21724418]

Per Berntsen wrote:

I believe Windows can handle separate monitor profiles for two monitors, but I have no experience with it.

Maybe somebody else has some advice to offer.

Windows has profile support for multiple monitor systems.  The problem is few applications, including those from Microsoft, implement profiles properly on multi monitor systems.

For instance, Firefox, Chrome and Adobe Camera Raw use the profile from the 'main display' and incorrectly use this profile across all the displays.

Windows Live Gallery works properly in still mode, as long as images don't straddle across screens.  It fails in Slide Show mode though and ignores monitor profiles, assuming a default sRGB display.