Color Management and Color Proof Issue

[joseagazzo]

I'm really, REALLY, confused. 

Photoshop shows an image with WAY less vivid colors than the exported file. 

When I actiave Color Proof - Monitor RGB the problem is fixed. 

I read it has something to do with my .ICM file in Color Management. 

I changed to AdobeSRGB1988 (because my monitor IS SUPPOSED to be wide gamut) and the issue persists. 

My monitor is an Acer VG280K. 

https://www.acer.com/us-en/monitors/gaming/nitro-vg0/pdp/UM.PV0AA.001

https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/d4d71d6a 

What am I doing wrong?

[TheDigitalDog]

That isn't a fix. All it does is show the image without proper color management. 

The other way you are viewing the image outside Photoshop isn't color managed so now it matches so you have two wrong previews. Photoshop is correct; it is color managed. 

See: http://digitaldog.net/files/SoftProofingInPhotoshopCC.mp4

[joseagazzo]

Thanks @TheDigitalDog 
But I still think the difference is WAY to exagerated for it being normal. 

I just aclibrated my monitor with SypderXPro Hardware and Software, the problem persists: The Photoshop file looks way to different than the export. I've looked at the exported file in different Apps. Including social media. 
I'm attaching snapshots of both with the Calibrated profile and the Color Proof. 
Also, a Render SaveForWeb. How do you see it in your PC? 😞

Thanks again! 😞

[TheDigitalDog]

Open this color reference image in Photoshop; how does it look compared to the other apps (and then try the soft proof):

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8opl2w0iugy1rzg/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif?dl=0

[joseagazzo]

Thank you for keeping up with me. 😞

I opened the file. This time its like the other way around, lol. in Photoshop it looks great, and in the other aplicacion it looks a little "meh". Photo Viewer replicates it just like Photoshop. I'll do the Gamut Test Next. 

[TheDigitalDog]

Again, PS is correct and color managed.

The other app(s) not.

There is nothing wrong with Photoshop.

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

This all seems to be working correctly to me.

This is what you get when you buy a wide gamut monitor. You must have full color management at all times. You cannot use applications without full color management support.

The oversaturated version is wrong. Whenever you see that, you know that color management isn't working - either because the application doesn't do it, or because you have failed to embed the document color profile correctly, or because the monitor profile is defective (but it seems to be fine here).

[joseagazzo]

@D Fosse @TheDigitalDog First of all, thank you so very much! Second... News! And more questions!

First, my display is not Wide Gamut. Its inly 100% sRGB. Bummer. 

Second, I compared my PCnext to an Asus Vivobook Pantone Certified laptop and both look almost the same. (What a relieve!)  I still have one question though If I may. 

The software that comes with my SpyderXPro creates an Color Profile and puts it as default on windows. Everything ok with that. BUT it also kind of calibrates windows all the time, even on the desktop, etc. I can switch this calibration on and off in the System Tray. Thing is, when I open Photoshop and it reads the default color profile in the color management I can still turn this overall calibration on and off on the tray. This makes the image I see in Photoshop change. Doesn't this meen I am "double calibrating"? 

[D Fosse]

Calibration and monitor profile are two different things, serving two different purposes. Don't confuse them!

The monitor profile is a standard icc profile, like any other icc profile. It describes the monitor in its calibrated state. The profile is written after the calibration is finished.

An icc profile is a map of a color space. Like any other map, it needs to describe the landscape correctly. The monitor profile needs to describe the monitor in its actual and current state. If that changes, if the monitor's behavior changes in any way, the profile is invalidated and you need to make a new one.

The monitor profile is set up at system level. Photoshop gets it from the operating system at startup, and uses it in a standard profile conversion from the document profile into the monitor profile. This conversion is performed continuously, on the fly, as you work. The numbers are constantly recalculated and sent to screen. This way the file is correctly represented on screen.

Applications that don't support color management don't do this. They just send the original document RGB numbers straight to screen without any correction.

For convenience, the calibration tables are often stored inside the monitor profile. That makes sense, because the two depend on each other. If one changes, the other needs to change too. In more advanced high-end displays (Eizo, NEC), the calibration isn't done in the video card, but directly in the monitor's own internal processor, and kept there, and so there's no need to keep the calibration stored in the profile.

[joseagazzo]

Thanks again guys. I'm way out of my league here and really trying to understand, but failing to do so. 

What DFosse stated is true, the ICC Profile is created after the calibration is finished, and at that point, the whole monitor gets "calibrated" Windows included, everything. Like a filter above the monitor. 

Now when I open Photoshop, it reads the created ICC Profile, but I still have the ability to turn the calibration on or off in the system tray. Should I leave it on?

[davescm]

Leave it on or the profile will not match the current state of the monitor.

Dave

[joseagazzo]

Thank you! That being said, is there a third party software for calibrating monitors that is recomended and works with Sypder X Pro? I feel the software weird and glitchy. 

[NB, colourmanagement net]

"is there a third-party software for calibrating monitors that is recommended and works with Sypder X Pro? I feel the software weird and glitchy. "

yes, try the excellent basICColor display software with your Spyder, it’s a free 14 day demo from time of registration / activation. 

Here's a supported instrument list for basICColor display:

[as I understand it the SpyderX Pro is just the same hardware as SpyderX , the PRO derivative just adds software]

Colorimeters
basICColor DISCUS

basICColor SQUID 3 (X-Rite i1Display Pro),

Datacolor Spyder 3 (Windows only),

Datacolor Spyder 4 (Windows only),

Datacolor Spyder 5

Datacolor SpyderX

EIZO Swing

EIZO Calibration Sensor

NEC SpectraSensor Pro (X-Rite i1Display Pro)

X-Rite i1Display Pro

X-Rite i1Display Pro Plus
Spectrometers
Konica Minolta FD-7

Konica Minolta MYIRO-1 USB and WLAN

X-Rite i1 Pro,

X-Rite i1 Pro 2,

X-Rite i1Pro 3,

X-Rite i1Pro 3 Plus

X-Rite i1Studio

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[TheDigitalDog]

What DFosse stated is true, the ICC Profile is created after the calibration is finished, and at that point, the whole monitor gets "calibrated" Windows included, everything?

By @joseagazzo

No, not everything. Only ICC-aware (color-managed) applications. Non-color-managed applications don't count; they don't even know the display profile exists. 

[davescm]

For clarity,

the calibration look up table (LUT) loaded to the GPU  (or direct to the monitor on higher end monitors)  affects both colour managed and non-colour managed applications. The profile affects only the colour managed applications.

Dave

[TheDigitalDog]

For clarity,

the calibration look up table (LUT) loaded to the GPU  (or direct to the monitor on higher end monitors)  affects both colour managed and non-colour managed applications. The profile affects only the colour managed applications.

Dave

By @davescm

Not enough! There is no Display Using Monitor Compensation in non color managed applications. And they have no idea of the scale of the numbers  (R237/G67/B90) is treated the same if the document is in sRGB or ProPhoto RGB, as non color managed applications don't understand color spaces. Yes, the display calibration affects all applications. But without those two vital pieces of data, there isn't going to be a match (and sometimes a massive mismatch) between the same numeric values in a document with and without color management. 

[joseagazzo]

I can actually SEE how the "calibration" ON/OFF affects absolutely everything when I press it. So I think Dave is right. (I don't get though what thedigitaldog means, I'm sure thats way to advanced for me, lol).

Regarding softwares for calibration? Is there an industry standart or something? As I said the SpyderXPro feels weird. 

For clarity,

the calibration look up table (LUT) loaded to the GPU  (or direct to the monitor on higher end monitors)  affects both colour managed and non-colour managed applications. The profile affects only the colour managed applications.

Dave

By @davescm

[TheDigitalDog]

I can actually SEE how the "calibration" ON/OFF affects absolutely everything when I press it. So I think Dave is right. (I don't get though what thedigitaldog means, I'm sure thats way to advanced for me, lol).

Regarding softwares for calibration? Is there an industry standart or something? As I said the SpyderXPro feels weird. 

Calibration is only one part of this. Calibration is to place a device, one that alters behavior into a desired AND consistent behavior. 

Profiles define device behavior. When you use the Spyder and software, you are both calibrating and profiling that display. 

Calibration (altering the display behavior) remains the same in every application. 

Not every application uses the profile; they are not color managed. 

Open my Gamut Test File in Photoshop and the other app that didn't match. Yes, the display in both is calibrated. No, they do not match. Because one uses both the calibration and the profiles to produce a preview. The other doesn't. 

Calibration alone is like one hand clapping. It doesn't fix the issue that color management does, using calibration AND a profile that defines the calibration to produce a preview. 

My Gamut Test file has the same RGB values no matter where you view it on your system with a 'calibrated' display, and yet, outside of Photoshop which is color managed, you get a massive mismatch. The calibration alone didn't fix that or help! 

Even if you turn OFF calibration as you indicate, my Gamut Test image will not appear the same in Photoshop and that 'other' application. 

[NB, colourmanagement net]

@joseagazzo "I don't get though what thedigitaldog means, I'm sure thats way to advanced for me, lol"

@TheDigitalDog  means that although calibration affects all data sent to the display screen, only applications that use the ICC display profile can provide accurate preview, so "its not enough" (for accuracy the the calibration is loaded. 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[davescm]

I agree you need the profile in Photoshop and other ICC colour managed applications. My purpose above was to explain the difference between the two and that the calibration LUT affects all applications.

That is important as, for example, in many video applications and some 3D applications calibration is as far as you go. No profile is expected or used. Those applications do know the video standard of the document and expect a monitor calibrated to that same video standard. So in those I set my monitors to the video standard e.g. Rec709 for video which would upload the calibration LUT to the monitor and does create an associated profile which can be used with ICC colour managed applications.

For ICC colour managed applications such as Photoshop then both the calibration and profile are required in order that the document profile can be correctly translated and the document displayed correctly. In that case I use a calibration that uses the full gamut of the monitor and a profile, made immediately after as part of the same process, that matches that state.

It is one of the advantages of the Eizo monitors and Color Navigator software that it is very quick to switch between them as I move into different workflows.

I know you know all that Andrew, it is for clarity of the OP whose workflow may, or may not, be wider than photographic images.

Dave

[joseagazzo]

Can I take the momento to thank you both? I THINK I'm getting the grasp of this. Tried the test @TheDigitalDog recommended and the results are just as he said. 

My workflow includes video-editing which now scares be considering all theese variables. I know this is the Photoshop thread but is Adobe Premiere a color managed software? Should I use my Calibrated Monitor's ICC Profile and Calibration Button? 

[TheDigitalDog]

 I know this is the Photoshop thread but is Adobe Premiere a color managed software? Should I use my Calibrated Monitor's ICC Profile and Calibration Button? 

By @joseagazzo

https://www.provideocoalition.com/understanding-premiere-pros-color-management/

https://blog.frame.io/2019/08/26/color-management-abobe-cc/

[davescm]

@joseagazzo  As was mentioned earlier a photo to print workflow, using properly color managed software, will use both the calibration and the profile made during (actually immediately after) the calibration process. It will also use the ICC profile embedded in an image document to ensure colour numbers are 'translated' when sent to the monitor so that the document is displayed correctly (subject to the capabilities of the monitor).

In this workflow, software which does not use the monitor profile, will display incorrectly which is why you see the difference you mention in your first post.

Standard video is different,  there is no document colour profile embedded. Instead there are video standards for colour and gamma such as the aforementioned REC709. Many video applications rely on the video industry standard method of calibrating the viewing monitors to those same standards. In 2018 Premiere Pro added the ability to switch on colour management which uses the monitor profile and translates from the video standard colours (remember there is no document profile embedded in video) to the monitor profile. This meant that those using computer monitors would see the video previews displayed correctly.

3D and VXF software varies. Some applications use the same method as standard video i.e. they expect monitors calibrated to standards and those applications give the option of selecting which standard your display monitor is calibrated to. Some give the option of ICC colour management and, when that option is switched on, will use the monitor profile in the same way as Premiere Pro. Some use the ACES colour management pipeline which is becoming more and more prevelant in the VFX and 3D industry. That pipeline expects displays calibrated to specific standards and you select which standard your monitor is calibrated to.

Which of those pipelines to use depends on your clients and where you fit in the production pipeline for such work.

Dave

[TheDigitalDog]

But this is rather critical: Calibration LUT (or otherwise) doesn't affect all applications the same way. 

The OP stated, "Photoshop shows an image with WAY less vivid colors than the exported file". 

This is true if the display is calibrated or not. No matter the gamut of the display or the image data.  

Calibration isn't the issue here. Yes, it's very useful and necessary. Calibration without a profile doesn't work on non color-managed applications. It is rather important for the OP to understand this critical fact. 

[NB, colourmanagement net]

"Now when I open Photoshop, it reads the created ICC Profile, but I still have the ability to turn the calibration on or off in the system tray. Should I leave it on?"

yes, definitely leave calibration active - as explained, the profile describes the "calibrated state" to applications that use colour management. 

since the calibration LUT (Look Up Table) is loaded into the video card, that calibration is active all the time, that’s how it should be .

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management