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Difference between CameraRAW and Photoshop

Explorer ,
Dec 01, 2023 Dec 01, 2023

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Good morning,
Simple question ( on my desktop PC 😞
In attached files you will find my original file presented in CameraRaw and the one obtained after conversion in PHOTOSHOP.
How to avoid this loss of information.
In advance, thank you for your answers

 

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correct answers 5 Correct answers

Community Expert , Dec 03, 2023 Dec 03, 2023

You need to find out what "Papier brilliant/Elevé" means and where it comes from! If you already know, please tell us.

 

I'm pretty sure that's the key. It's an anomaly that I've never seen before.

 

I have tried absolutely every variety I can think of, to open a raw file from Lightroom as a smart object, and then reopening the smart object into the ACR module. That includes printer profiles and all varieties of soft proof on/off.

 

Never, ever, have I seen "Papier brilliant/Elevé" or any Englis

...

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Community Expert , Dec 03, 2023 Dec 03, 2023

Yes! Thank you Bojan, that's exactly what it is. I never sharpen that way, so that's why I hadn't seen it.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't explain what we're seeing here, so we're back to square one. It still has the feel of soft proofing with "simulate black ink", but that would have shown in the title bar. So that's probably a dead end.

 

Maybe we need to look at our old friend the monitor profile. That could explain it. So @R. K.-B. , what is your monitor profile? Are you using a calibrator, whic

...

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Community Expert , Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

Can you send me original raw image via private message, upload somewhere then send me link to download. I want to test on my side what is going on.

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Community Expert , Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

In the top right corner click on mail icon then new message then type my user name Bojan Živković

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Community Expert , Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

Elementary, my dear Watson 😉 😄

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Adobe
Community Expert ,
Dec 01, 2023 Dec 01, 2023

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In Camera Raw I see RGB while in Photoshop color mode is RVB? Is that normal for French translation or something is wrong there?

color mode.jpg

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Explorer ,
Dec 02, 2023 Dec 02, 2023

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I've tried all the modes, but I always get the same result.

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Community Expert ,
Dec 02, 2023 Dec 02, 2023

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I think we need @D Fosse for this.

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Explorer ,
Dec 02, 2023 Dec 02, 2023

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! Good idea

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Community Expert ,
Dec 02, 2023 Dec 02, 2023

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I just cannot make any sense of that screenshot from ACR. Why is "Papier brilliant/Elevé" added at the end of the workflow options (bottom)? What does that mean? Where did it come from? ACR can soft proof, but this is not how soft proofing shows in ACR.

ACR1.png

 

This is obviously the key to the whole thing. It looks like a soft proof with "simulate black ink/paper color" baked into the pixel data sent to Photoshop. But how that could ever happen I have absolutely no clue. Yes, this is a smart object from ACR, but that doesn't explain it either.

 

I need to say that I do all my raw file work in Lightroom Classic, and I almost never open the ACR interface. I'm not as familiar with it. Obviously there's something I'm missing here.

 

(Bojan - RVB is just RGB in French).

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Explorer ,
Dec 02, 2023 Dec 02, 2023

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I pick up the thread of the story.
Photo export from LightRoom to PhotoShop using CameraRaw as an intermediary (which I reverted to 'Screen' and made it a dynamic object).
In the end, the result is the same, the photo displayed in PhotoShop is degraded and looks nothing like it originally did in LightRoom and CameraRaw.

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Community Expert ,
Dec 03, 2023 Dec 03, 2023

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You need to find out what "Papier brilliant/Elevé" means and where it comes from! If you already know, please tell us.

 

I'm pretty sure that's the key. It's an anomaly that I've never seen before.

 

I have tried absolutely every variety I can think of, to open a raw file from Lightroom as a smart object, and then reopening the smart object into the ACR module. That includes printer profiles and all varieties of soft proof on/off.

 

Never, ever, have I seen "Papier brilliant/Elevé" or any English equivalent, whatever that might be, added at the end of the workflow options (after the ppi number).

 

Can someone please tell me what this is and what it means?

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Community Expert ,
Dec 03, 2023 Dec 03, 2023

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Perhaps Workflow > Sharpen For is the answer? Unfortuanelly its not solution.

glossy.jpg

sharpen for in acr.jpg

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Community Expert ,
Dec 03, 2023 Dec 03, 2023

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Yes! Thank you Bojan, that's exactly what it is. I never sharpen that way, so that's why I hadn't seen it.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't explain what we're seeing here, so we're back to square one. It still has the feel of soft proofing with "simulate black ink", but that would have shown in the title bar. So that's probably a dead end.

 

Maybe we need to look at our old friend the monitor profile. That could explain it. So @R. K.-B. , what is your monitor profile? Are you using a calibrator, which one?

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Community Expert ,
Dec 03, 2023 Dec 03, 2023

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Have you tried simplest yet sometimes effective solution to reset preferences?

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Explorer ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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I have tried everything.
Normally, What You See Is (in CameraRaw) What You Get (in PhotoShop).

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Community Expert ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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Can you send me original raw image via private message, upload somewhere then send me link to download. I want to test on my side what is going on.

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Explorer ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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Yes, no problem.
How do I send a private message.

 

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Community Expert ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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In the top right corner click on mail icon then new message then type my user name Bojan Živković

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Explorer ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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I'm sorry, but I don't have the mail icon in the top right corner

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Community Expert ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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I think I might have figured this out. It is one strange problem! It actually makes sense and there does not seem to be a bug. But…it is extremely difficult to understand and troubleshoot, unless all of these concepts are understood first: 

  • Camera Raw renders through its Workflow Color Space profile, so it is a form of soft-proofing and applies every option including Intent and Simulate Paper & Ink. We like this, it’s useful when editing in Camera Raw for a specific delivery medium. 
  • A Camera Raw Smart Object in Photoshop respects and displays the rendering of the Workflow Color Space profile applied within the Smart Object. 
  • If you send a Camera Raw file to Photoshop as a Smart Object, the document profile of that new containing Photoshop document is set to the Workspace Color Space of the Smart Object it was created for. Makes sense, why not. 
  • The final appearance in Photoshop is each Smart Object’s profile through the Photoshop document profile. That is as it should be. But in this question’s example, it looks limited because it is limited by those settings: You are not seeing the full range of the file in Photoshop, you are seeing it limited by both the Camera Raw Smart Object’s Workspace Color Profile, and the Photoshop document profile which is probably set to the same output-specific profile. If you want to see the full range image and not one constrained to the limitations of that profile, open the Camera Raw Smart Object layer and change the Workspace Color Profile to a more universal and wider color space, such as Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB.

 

However, when I tried the fix in that last item, it did not completely fix the problem. This is where I found something that looks crazy and unexpected, but is actually logical and correct after thinking through the above points: If a Photoshop document was created specifically by opening an image as a Camera Raw Smart Object, and you change the Workflow Color Space of that Camera Raw Smart Object, the Photoshop document profile is not changed. But that was taken from the original Camera Raw Smart Object, so it still affects the display of that Smart Object even though the Smart Object is now set to display different color settings. So the Smart Object’s color profile is changed, but its appearance in the Photoshop document does not change. I noticed this only because I keep my status bar set to Document Profile, and I could see it was still the original document profile taken from the Camera Raw Smart Object import.

 

The solution, then, has two parts:

1. In the Camera Raw Smart Object, make sure the selected Workflow Color Space profile is the one you want to use to render how the Camera Raw Smart Object looks in Photoshop. 

2. In the Photoshop document, make sure the assigned document profile is the one you want to define the appearance of the entire Photoshop document, and if it is not, choose Edit > Assign Profile and correct it.

 

Usually you want Convert to Profile, but in this case, that will flatten all layers so you would lose the Smart Objects. Assign Profile is OK in this scenario (if the document contains only Camera Raw Smart Object layers) because the Smart Object layers will be re-rendered through the new document profile, making them look as expected after assigning a different document profile. (Although the display actually looked buggy and wrong while previewing Assign to Profile; although this was alarming, it looked correct after clicking OK.)

 

You can see what I mean if you watch the animation below that flips between two versions, before and after assigning a different Photoshop document profile:

  • The document contains two Camera Raw Smart Objects set to different Workflow Color Space profiles, which I labeled using the layer names: The top one is set to Adobe RGB, and the bottom one is set to a matte paper profile for an old inkjet printer, which is how it was set when the document was created from opening a raw file as a Camera Raw Smart Object. The Adobe RGB version was created by selecting the original, choosing Layer > Smart Objects > New Smart Object via Copy, and then changing its Workflow Color Space profile to Adobe RGB. 
  • Even though the Adobe RGB preview should look better, the dynamic range of both is visibly limited (Adobe RGB looks wrong)…as long as the Photoshop document profile is still set to the cheap matte paper profile taken from the Camera Raw Workflow setting when the raw file was originally sent to Photoshop as a Smart Object. 
  • After the Photoshop document profile is changed to sRGB (using Edit > Assign Profile), now things look as expected: The Adobe RGB Smart Object looks full range, and the cheap matte paper Smart Object still looks limited. 

 

On a properly adjusted display, as the document profile changes to sRGB at the bottom of the animation, you should be able to see the top one improve, and the bottom one stay the same. They switch every second.

 

That was a crazy journey!

 

Photoshop-smart-object-profile-vs-document-profile.gif

 

It would be easy to say this is ridiculous and too complicated. But in reality it does make sense if you want to embed Smart Objects, and is consistent with any other medium where you have a chain of renders where the specs might be different at each stage. It is the same thinking that an audio engineer must master when thinking through gain staging, and that a video editor must master when thinking through nested sequences. The weakest link in the staging chain limits anything after it, so to maximize quality at the final stage, inspect each intermediate stage to ensure its output settings are not adding an unwanted limitation in the middle.

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Community Expert ,
Dec 04, 2023 Dec 04, 2023

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Elementary, my dear Watson 😉 😄

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