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lcohen5757
Participant
September 6, 2020
Answered

export or save as dng

  • September 6, 2020
  • 4 replies
  • 19759 views

Why can't photoshop save an image to a DNG?  Since Adobe is promoting DNG, this should be a no-brainer for a person to be able to save an image from the program to a DNG.

 

 

    This topic has been closed for replies.
    Correct answer JohanElzenga

    Thank you All, I am able to understand this better now. Another question please...If instead of having two separate backups of memories as JPEG and DNG, if I want to save them as DNG only, can Apple's own Photo app display DNGs exported from Lightroom Mobile with the edits please? If not, what other apps can display these DNG with edits for watching memories with Friends and Family on a large TV or Projector please?

    If this is not possible then I will save as JPEGs for watching and DNG as backups. Please advise. 


    @Kandisa4u wrote:

    If I want to save them as DNG only, can Apple's own Photo app display DNGs exported from Lightroom Mobile with the edits please? If not, what other apps can display these DNG with edits for watching memories with Friends and Family on a large TV or Projector please?


    I believe I already answered that and you said you understood my answer. The answer is no. If you export as DNG, then the edits will not be applied to the image but will be stored in the metadata, and Apple Photos cannot read this. It means that Photos will display the DNG as unedited image. This always happens this way, no matter what the file format of the original image is. The only apps that can read the metadata-embedded edits are Adobe apps.

     

    4 replies

    T
    Test Screen Name
    Legend
    January 12, 2023

    I wonder if people are aware that allowing save of edited files as to mosaiced (camera format) DNG would be destroying 75% of the colour info, way worse than saving as JPEG. I think refusing to save as camera format, no matter how much it SEEMS a good idea, is very definitely the right thing to do, and people will just have to find a different convenient workflow.

      JohanElzenga
      Community Expert
      JohanElzengaCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      January 12, 2023
      quote

      I wonder if people are aware that allowing save of edited files as to mosaiced (camera format) DNG would be destroying 75% of the colour info, way worse than saving as JPEG. I think refusing to save as camera format, no matter how much it SEEMS a good idea, is very definitely the right thing to do, and people will just have to find a different convenient workflow.


      By @Test Screen Name


      I don't think you understand how this works. Lightroom can export as DNG, so let's see what happens if you do that. Exporting as DNG does not mean that an RGB image is somehow converted to mosaiced data again. That is not possible. It would be like converting an omelet to raw eggs again. If you export as DNG, then Lightroom will pack the original raw data in a DNG envelope, and will embed the edits as non-destructive metadata instructions.

      If the original is not a raw image, then it works the same way. The original RGB data are written to the DNG, so the DNG will simply not be a raw file in that case. Photoshop cannot work directly with raw data, but there is no reason why it could not export an RGB file as DNG. But because Photoshop edits are not non-destructive metadata, the result would be that the edited pixels would be packed in a DNG envelope. That is pretty useless because it is no different than saving as TIFF, and because DNG does not support layers and other stuff, it would be much more limited than TIFF. But you would not lose 75% colour info like you suggest.

       

      -- Johan W. Elzenga
        T
        Test Screen Name
        Legend
        January 12, 2023
        quote

        I think the word I mean is "mosaiced", that is in the format stored by a camera. I realised I didn't know what Camera Raw really was so I have been studying about this. I found these articles especially useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Negative

        I see a lot of questions about camera raw and SOME of them seem to make this series of assumptions.
        1. They tell us to work in Camera Raw.
        2. That must mean that Camera Raw is the best possible graphic format.
        3. So I naturally want to convert my work to this best possible format and use it as my standard image format, because it's the best.

        In fact, Camera Raw is a very poor quality format (as it comes out of a camera), because it has only 1/3-1/4 of the colour info in other graphics format.


        By @Test Screen Name

        So tell us what you'd use instead of raw digital cameras.

         

        Virtually every digital camera produces raw data. Even if you ask for a JPEG (which is vastly inferior to the raw)**

        Our phones produce a raw. Whether you can access it or it only hands you a JPEG. 

        "They," tell us to use raw data (not necessarily the product called Adobe Camera Raw); what else do you propose considering how these cameras capture?  

         

        DNG is simply a container, like it's brother TIFF (both owned by Adobe). A DNG can contain raw data, as raw as the original. It can contain a TIFF or JPEG. That TIFF or JPEG is no different in or out of the DNG container. 

         

         

        **Ideally you want to stick with the raw data. The JPEG engine that processes the raw massively clips and compresses highlights. We often don't when editing the raw. This compression can clump midtones as much as 1 stop while compressing shadow details! People incorrectly state that raw has more highlight data but the fact is, the DR captured is an attribute of the capture system; it's all there in the raw but maybe not in a camera proceed JPEG.

        A raw capture that's 10 or 11 stops of dynamic range can be compressed to 7 stops from this JPEG processing which is a significant amount of data and tonal loss! So when we hear people state that a raw has more DR than a JPEG, it's due to the poor rendering or handling of the data to create that JPEG. The rendering of this data and the reduction of dynamic range is from the JPEG engine that isn't handling the DR data that does exists as well as we can from the raw! Another reason to capture and render the raw data, assuming you care about how the image is rendered!

         


        "So tell us what you'd use instead of raw digital cameras."

        There's nothing better. But RAW format is pretty rubbish compared to most other image formats; but it is what all digital photos have as their starting point. We can get great results after demosaicing and carefully developing. Better than the JPEG which the camera makes because we are making focussed decisions rather than "one size fits all" consumer decisions, and better than JPEG because it doesn't get a whole generation of JPEG artefacts. All this is good.

        Where it becomes bad is where someone wants to get back the ORIGINAL format coming out of the camera, because they think that is a good format for storage of photos. Something that would require mosaicing it all over again, through red/green/blue filters. To their credit, Adobe don't do this even though customers want it. DNG is a red herring here, and I think this confuses many people, because a DNG can contain both camera raw and developed RGB data, and so far as I know the end user can't trivially tell the difference. 

        Also, I see discussions like this, which want to know what has gone wrong when a small DNG becomes a big PSD https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/raw-to-psd-massive-file-size-difference-why/m-p/13465276

        TheDigitalDog
        TheDigitalDog
        Inspiring
        December 12, 2022

        If you have a JPEG, you have a JPEG and placing it into a DNG does not change that.

         

        Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
        TheDigitalDog
        TheDigitalDog
        Inspiring
        April 19, 2022

        Photoshop only edits and saves rendered image data. At this point in time, saving to DNG or TIFF would be the same and in fact, DNG is a cousin of TIFF.

        What would you gain by saving in DNG instead of TIFF from PS?

        Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
        K
        Kandisa4u
        Participating Frequently
        November 30, 2022

        Storage space? DNG files take less space than TIFF.

         

        So, is it correct that Lightroom Mobile doesn't export as DNG? Reason I ask is that after I imported a Canon RAW file to Lightroom Mobile on my iPad Pro, and made the edits, I exported the file as DNG to iPad's Photo app/Camera Roll. Lightroom downloaded the original RAW file instead without edits. 

         

        I'm confused, and I don't want to export as JPEG or TIFF.

         

        JohanElzenga
        Community Expert
        JohanElzengaCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        November 30, 2022

        Yes, Lightroom mobile can export as DNG, but you still confuse raw files and rendered files. If Lightroom mobile exports a raw file as DNG, then it will simply put the raw data in a 'DNG envelope' instead of its original envelope. It will not change the raw data by applying the edits to them. That is why you cannot compare exporting as DNG with exporting as TIFF or JPEG. TIFF and JPEG are rendered files, meaning that the pixels are changed so you see the edits. The raw data are like raw eggs (raw is not an abbreviation like TIFF, it really means raw/pure/unchanged), a TIFF is like the omelette you made from these eggs.

         

        -- Johan W. Elzenga
          JJMack
          Community Expert
          JJMackCommunity Expert
          Community Expert
          September 6, 2020

          Photoshop does not support Camera Raw Sensor mosaic images.Photoshop Supports converted RGB images. Why should Photoshop be able to save images it does not support.

          JJMack
            I
            Icelandfan@me.com
            Participant
            April 19, 2022

            It seems Photoshop should support DNG files since iPhone 13 Pro Max has an option to take pics in Apple's ProRAW format.  My goal is to take pics with my iPhone in the format, import into Photoshop or Lightroom to edit, and then export to SmugMug for distribution in highest resolution possible.  How does Photoshop accommodate pics taken by iPhone?  I was hoping it would be compatible to accepting a 12 bit file so more information and dynamic range would be available when editing exposure and white balance.  If this capability is available in the latest versions Ps or Lr, please advise the technique I should use to import RAW format from my iPhone and saving them in Ps or Lr in this highest resolution format DNG taken with the latest iPhone with their RAW option selected.  If not possible, what is the highest resolution format that can be saved in Photoshop?  Thank you for helping me getting on track with having pics taken on my iPhone imported to either of the Adobe applications.

            T
            Test Screen Name
            Legend
            April 19, 2022

            Photoshop can READ raw files. It can't write them, because writing them is a camera's job. Raw is not an interchange format, it's a way of getting pictures out of a camera and nothing else. The idea is that a raw file, even if edited is never changed - it is like a negative, you don't chop up your negative to crop a print.

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