Help with colorspace on MacBook for printing comics

[nicholas_6714]

Hi there ! I have an m3 MacBook Pro and I’m trying to decide which of the p3 profiles would get me the best results out of the box for printing comics? This is an indie venture more for fun than anything else, and I know a calibrator or more accurate display would be a better option, but I’d rather try to work with what I have for the moment. Is there one of the p3 profiles that would be good enough for cmyk print work? The company requests files to be in RGB format so I suppose my workflow would be choose whichever profile is suggested, (lower the brightness ?) and then work in the p3 space and convert to RGB on export and view it in a few places to see if I like the result? Then when it comes to print since this a less than accurate method just ask for test prints and see if it’s good enough for me? I think d50 or one of the other print d3 profiles would be best but figured I'd ask. 

Thanks so much!

[D Fosse]

The display profile (the p3 profiles) and the document profile are two different things, serving different purposes. Do not use the display profile as document profile. That defeats the whole purpose of color management.

The purpose of the display profile is to be an accurate description of the display's actual and current behavior. So you use whatever system display profile is the closest to how your display actually represents the numbers. Having one made with a calibrator, based on actual measurement, would be much better. 

The document profile needs to be a standard color space, traditionally, sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto. However, it has become increasingly common in the Mac community to use Display P3 everywhere - not really what P3 was intended for, but given that this is becoming common practice, Display P3 should be included in the list of standard profiles.

Next, to get a preview of what the file will print like, you proof to the print profile. The printer will need to tell you what their print profile is. It sounds like this is going to be printed on an inkjet printer, not offset, which is why they're asking for RGB and not CMYK.

The purpose of proofing is to show you on screen what colors in the file are out of the printer's gamut. It restricts the on-screen representation to the gamut of the print profile. Ultimately, the printed result is limited by the physical properties of the specific inks on the specific paper, which is reflected in the profile. If it's a high-end inkjet printer, you may not see a very dramatic difference. If it's offset, expect a severe dulling down of many strong colors.

----

That was the color management part. There's a second part, which is display calibration - white point color and luminance, and black point. Monitor white should be a visual match to paper white, and monitor black should match max ink. This is a purely visual match - if it looks right, it is right. Most displays out of the box are way too bright and with much too high contrast (too deep blacks).

Since you don't have a calibrator, numbers won't tell you anything. Just adjust brightness until it looks right. If you get it right, what you see on screen will match the printed result.

[ExUSA]

Apple includes display profiles specifically for your MacBook screen. Absent hardware calibration, these profiles are typically pretty close. So use the system matching profile for your internal screen. If you have an external display, again look for a matching Apple-supplied profile that matches the display model.

Printing is usually darker than video or display, so factor that in when you are designing graphics. Comic books are often printed on cheap uncoated paper and have a simple color gamut. I would ask the printer for their preferred colorspace and printer profile if they have one, otherwise sRGB or AdobeRGB are probably both fine.

If I was worried about accurate color on press, I'd do a sample sheet with common elements including text and pay for press proofs. See how an actual press run looks on paper.

[Conrad_C]

Because you mentioned a MacBook Pro, P3, and D50, are you actually asking about the P3 Presets in System Settings / Displays, and not about profiles in Photoshop? If so, are you asking about the P3 presets I marked in the picture below?

If that’s what you’re asking about, this is an area widely misunderstood by many Mac users because it’s relatively new. Those are definitely not profiles and should never be called profiles, to avoid confusion with the ICC color profiles used for display, editing, and printing. These are reference mode Presets and are an entirely different kind of thing altogether. And they do not replace ICC profiles, but work together with them.

This is what they are for:

Design & Print (P3-D50) and Photography (P3-D65) can be appropriate for print, because of their maximum luminance of 160 nits. Choose the one with the white point that your printing company tells you is a closer match to their viewing booth for print proofing. But I think a lower display luminance is more appropriate for print, so I used the Customize Presets command to copy one and lower its Maximum Luminance to where I like it. 

Apple XDR Display (P3 - 1600 nits): This is best for viewing and editing HDR photos/video. Not recommended for previewing for print, because the dynamic range vastly exceeds what any printer ever made can reproduce.  

Apple Display (P3 - 500 nits): This is kind of OK for print if you’re fine with a D65 white point, but the maximum luminance is a bit bright for print. If you dial it down to around 90-120 nits using the Brightness controls, that would work a little better for print. 

Digital Cinema (P3-DCI) and (P3-D65) should only be used for editing video to be shown in cinemas because of the extremely low maximum luminance of 48 nits, which is how dim it can be in a movie theatre. The only difference between these two is the white point.

Reference mode presets are not some kind of weird Apple thing. They are similar to the hardware calibration presets that have been in use in high-end displays for many years. They constrain the hardware behavior of the display from its native calibrated state, unlike an ICC color display profile that the operating system uses to apply a calibration in software.

P3 will work fine for general process color print reproduction. Some will prefer Adobe RGB because that fits CMYK slightly better, but if you’ll be editing on your MacBook Pro display, Apple display panels are natively P3.

[nicholas_6714]

Correct! Sorry for the confusion so in my case I am looking to get as accurate of a representation as I can without having to get a calibrator at the moment for print. So in that case would there be one of those reference mode presets you would prefer for comic printing over the others or should I just leave the display mode as default and get proofs from the printer and make adjustments as needed ? 

within photoshop for whatever reference preset I go with should there be any sort of project settings I alter to get as close as I can hope without a calibrated monitor to what I would see i!n print? Probably just using RGB as export right ? I'm not too familiar with photoshop so I don't know if there is a specific way to set up projects for print or a "workspace" setting I should use? 

thanks for your help so far ! 

[ExUSA]

The presets actually change how the display works. Profiles match the display so that color management works properly. Use the Apple profile that matches the computer, there should be one specifically for that model.

And remember that given how comics are usually printed, its going to be difficult to get great color reproduction. But yes do get proofs off the press.

[nicholas_6714]

The profiles would be within photoshop then ? And just leave the preset alone in the MacBook settings ? 

[D Fosse]

Again, there are two profiles in any color management - a source and a destination. Two hands clapping, not one.

• The source profile is the document profile as set in Photoshop.
• The destination profile for display is the display profile. That is set in your Macbook.
• The destination profile for print is the print profile as set by your printer.

If all these profiles are correct and accurate, the result will match all around.

A correct profile is one that describes its corresponding color space correctly. For your display, that means you set the display profile that corresponds to the display's actual behavior - as determined by the preset you choose.

The presets is the closest thing you will get to display calibration. The preset determines the white point, black point and contrast range. You want a white point that gives you a good representation of paper white on screen. It can't be too bright and you probably need to dial down the brightness considerably.

Once you get the basic principle this isn't as complicated as it seems. If you had a calibrator it would be much more transparent and obvious how this actually works, because then you are dealing directly with the basic elements of the process, instead of abstract "presets".

[nicholas_6714]

Understood kind of lol, so what would be your recommended course of action until I get my hands on a calibrator ? ELI5 if you have time lol. For my actual display settings leave it at p3 default or set it to p3 50 or 65 to start ? Either way I'll need to dial back my brightness quite a bit say half or so ? 

then in photoshop I want to set my document profile to RGB or match the preset of my monitor ?

so I would want to set my source profile to RGB and the. My destination profile to either the default p3 since that's the manufacturers profile for this particular display and dial back the brightness or switch that to the p3 d50 or 60 and still dial back my brightness ? 

sorry I don't really fully understand I'm not trying to be difficult. 

[Stephen Marsh]

@nicholas_6714 

Consider the following:

Again, there are two profiles in any color management - a source and a destination. Two hands clapping, not one.

...

• The destination profile for print is the print profile as set by your printer.

By @D Fosse

I have not seen any mention of which CMYK profile should be  used to soft proof the RGB document. The paper type and print method have not been mentioned, there isn't a "generic one size fits all CMYK",  so results will vary depending on which CMYK profile is used for soft proofing. If you don't know then it's a crapshoot, even if your monitor setup is correct.

[nicholas_6714]

They requested the file in RGB and when I pressed further about which cmyk profile both printers said to use a generic one lol 

[Stephen Marsh]

They requested the file in RGB and when I pressed further about which cmyk profile both printers said to use a generic one lol 

By @nicholas_6714

As the saying goes "good help is hard to find"... It shouldn't be, it's like asking a cabinet maker what exact type of material they will be making your furniture from and they reply "wood".

[ExUSA]

Presets are a canned way of setting display preferences. You can manually reduce brightness if you want. The biggest issue is going to be that brightness, your display is FAR brighter than a printed page. Fix that first.

[nicholas_6714]

Understood, so the best way then would be to leave my display as far as the actual MacBook goes on the p3 and then just lower my brightness would that be the simplest way to start getting closer to?

[nicholas_6714]

So the best way to start would probably be d50 preset ( the printer said d50 would be closest) and to lower my brightness quite a bit ? And then just work in RGB and soft proof to make sure I'm not wildly outside the gamut of CMYK to check colors and then get a test print off the press to get an idea for brightness of my screen vs the print and adjust as needed ? 

[D Fosse]

Whatever gets you a visual match to paper color on screen. If it looks like a match, you're good to go.

This depends on a lot of factors - the ambient light, the application interface, and the light you will be viewing and assessing the prints in.

Personally I never set my displays to D50, I find that far too yellow. I usually end up with 6200 or 6300 K, but again, depending on conditions.

This is the basic principle (although you will rarely view the print right next to the display - but you get the point):

[nicholas_6714]

Ah ok, so the dirty way to do it for now would be to just hold up a piece of printer or whatever paper next to the screen and open a blank document and cycle through those display presets until I find the closest one and then just lower the brightness down so what I see on the screen would be closer to print brightness ? And as far as photoshop just work in RGB for now and soft proof within photoshop and let the printer handle the cmyk conversion ? 

[D Fosse]

Yes, that's about it. Quick and dirty, but it should get you in the ballpark. Although hold the paper out so it's properly lit.

I'd recommend Adobe RGB as document profile. It's the industry standard in the print world, expected and accepted everywhere.

We still don't know how it's going to be printed. If this is offset printing, expect dulling down in color and contrast, in particular, a much higher black level than what the display is showing you. The printer should tell you which profile will be used, so you can proof to it - but the lighter black level is only partially reflected by the profile.

[nicholas_6714]

Understood! I think like you said d65 may be closer, d50 is wacky yellow lol. I am a weirdo who has 6500k lightbulbs in my room though becuause I hate warm white light it makes me feel pukey lol. I'll reach out and find out how it's going to be printed and get back to you. 

Once I select whichever preset for to match the paper color would it be best next to knock the screen brightness wayyyyy down ? I think if I selected something like the original xdr preset at 1600 nits I would be dropping the brightness most of the way down? 

thanks so much for your help so far 

[nicholas_6714]

I said 6500k light I meant 5000k lol sorry 

[D Fosse]

Don't even think about an xdr preset, that's for high dynamic range display. Ink on paper is a whole other animal. See if there is a preset called print.

Just to give you some comparative numbers, a good screen brightness for previewing and preparing print is usually around 90 - 110 candelas per m² (cd/m²). The xdr preset will crank your screen up to a crazy 1600 cd/m²...

[nicholas_6714]

There is ! It's a d50 preset that has a nits of .... 160 max. So just go for that one and knock the brightness back a peg or two ? That's probably going to look terrible for normal usage ( browsing the net and stuff) so just switch back between that print profile for working and to the XDR for regular fun usage lol? 

If I pick d50 with max luminance of 160 should I still hold up a paper in the room (with the 5000k) lights and try to use the brightness settings to match the paper ? Or just ballpark it by dropping down a few notches on brightness and call it a day ? I promise I'm going to buy a calibrator asap. You've been an angel. 

[D Fosse]

Yeah, well, this is what I don't like about presets. You have to take what you get and it's never exactly right.

Just for the record, all these things can be tuned very accurately so that what you see on screen is an exact match to what comes out of the printer - to the point where test prints aren't really needed. But for that you need a much better and more customizable display system.

[Stephen Marsh]

Keep in mind that soft proofing with black ink and/or paper simulation will also change the luminance of the displayed image. The trick is to look away when applying the soft proofing and to not have anything else visible onscreen that's a brighter white than the image.

[D Fosse]

Keep in mind that soft proofing with black ink and/or paper simulation will also change the luminance of the displayed image.

By @Stephen Marsh

I never use that. I have calibration targets for the Eizo to the appropriate black and white points. Depending on paper, that black point (for offset print) is usually between 1.0 and 1.5 cd/m².